New map format

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 14 Jun 2005, 11:26

Raises hand, I don't do it becuase I enjoy it, I do it becuase I can.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 14 Jun 2005, 12:48

Well, I'd like to have a map of "radar" and "los" dead zones. So basically you can make sections of your map (such as forests) halt radar detection.
As I have suggested earlier, I think that units in forests should also be allowed free cloaking (irrelevant of their ability to do so) in forest areas (and potentially other areas like swamps, etc) when they have been stationary for a certain amount of time. Such a map over the usual bitmap would allow the player to determine zones where units are allowed to cloak, such as forests, etc.

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Another potential suggestion, although somewhat linked to my previous one, is that you could allow Spring to recognise a very basic mapgrid language, rather than preset grids. Then players would be able to use basic inputs to tell Spring what their different heightmap levels do. Perhaps it is a bit hopeful, but it would give map makers enormous flexibility in terms of what they can do.
For example, the same system could be used for players to input weather areas, so that snowstorms will only happen in snow areas, and so on.
Also, players could input areas that adjust unit speed values, so that unit's go full speed (or boosted speed?) on roads, while slower speeds offroad, and much slower taking swamp routes, etc.
Basically, it opens up a number of options, without the SY's having to personally input the ability to do so in Spring. The map maker would just have to create a new 'heightmap' or 'adjustmentmap' (whatever), and then write a short sample of very basic code which the map section of spring recognises and runs.

Delta · Post by **Delta** » 14 Jun 2005, 13:21

Warlord Zsinj wrote:Well, I'd like to have a map of "radar" and "los" dead zones. So basically you can make sections of your map (such as forests) halt radar detection.
As I have suggested earlier, I think that units in forests should also be allowed free cloaking (irrelevant of their ability to do so) in forest areas (and potentially other areas like swamps, etc) when they have been stationary for a certain amount of time. Such a map over the usual bitmap would allow the player to determine zones where units are allowed to cloak, such as forests, etc.
...

Dont think this would work, since forests can be burnt down etc. other than that it's a good idea.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 14 Jun 2005, 14:18

A sudden steep canoy then?

That would be great tool to for devepepors, not having to play whit radar all the time. Have radar off on the map, gives a expreiented player creeps and the game becomes more of a suprise attack game. Or having the deadmans lands zones radar free, so that you know when someone is trying to attack your base, but inside the ''ZONE'' u know what you see. Even better if could have the radar map as something ''blocking'' the radar. A line here means moutin, if u have radar on ither side you cant se the other... but if you have it ontop of the mountin.

sry for rambling^^

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 14 Jun 2005, 18:31

Doomweaver said:

Can you give support for two textures? As in, the color map + a color map at about 1/4 the resolution in each dimension? It would REALLY add to the deformations. When you shoot grass, it should become brown, like dirt. Sand should become slightly darker and increase in saturation (if it's near the water, because wet sand looks different to dry.)
Etc.

Yep, This actully came up ages ago (I should know, I posted it... it got lost in the PHPBB BigBang). At the time it was dismissed as not only would you be adding a new layer for the texture, youd all so have to add another layer for the transparency of said layer. However I still think the idea rocks... And as we wanna make the game future proof I think It should go in. ofcourse you'll have to give the option to turn it off...

The problem will be that everytime you add a new map layer (at the mo theres 3 (i think!), metal layer, acctul texture, and the heightmap) you'll start slowing the game down a bit.

If you added a water map, a second texture (and its transpareny map), a radar dead zone map, a enviroment map, then just those few bring up the number of layers to 8! thats more than double!

So, for the sake of fast running and file sizes, some compramises will have to be made.

Presonly Im still realy in favor of the dule textures thing.

aGorm

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 14 Jun 2005, 19:13

No, we dont need all of those stuff.

However, a support for it all could be fun, and developers can chose which maps to have on. so if they wanna make BUTIFULL lake side map whit houses and a little lake atop of a moutin where there is no radar, then they can do it. Even if the maps about 60-100 mbyte. And if they just wanna go whit the Textyre/hieght/metal cocenpt, they can do that to. And if noone of the fueturs desriped are used(ergo, radar, watermap ect) then it's shut off and dont affect gameplay. The only thing wrong whit that is The MASSIVE amount of work it takes, and that the size of TA:S becomes a litte larger... but the maps are the thing thats is biggest right now anyway, right?

But thats WAY upp in the future.

Motsly now we need to kill bugs and develop systems to develop MODS.

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 14 Jun 2005, 22:40

Warlord Zsinj wrote:Well, I'd like to have a map of "radar" and "los" dead zones. So basically you can make sections of your map (such as forests) halt radar detection.
...

Or a vortex spinning in the middle of the map!?

It would be cool if it allowed for movable textures like the lava flowing in Quake 3? Or a vortex?

Does it already suport for things like lava, where units can't pass? Or acid? If not, it would be very good...

If any of this has already been mentioned, well, sorry. No time to do proper surfing of the forums...

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 14 Jun 2005, 23:06

I was thinking, maybe the main objectives of a new map file format should be easiness of creation and handling as well as functionality (as in not making the map heavy on the specs).

Also, the old TA modders should have a say at this, maybe more than the others.
I remember to stumble across a post in on of those TA forums, where i also saw zsgssg (:oops: I'm sorry dude but you name is hard to remember... i can't even remember the name of the site

), where a dude was saying that there was no point in a modder like him to move from oTA to TA::Spring because the units format was still the same bad thing as well as the maps format.

AF · Post by AF » 14 Jun 2005, 23:11

=! It isnt tht hard to remember *hhmmmm... zwzsg* but thats just a silly thing to say about a project in development.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 15 Jun 2005, 02:05

Each layer over the map would only need to be 16 colours, or at most, 256 colours. Most maps are just "yes/no" like the radar thing. "This blocks radar", "This doesn't", meaning that only two colours are needed over the whole map for that overlay. We are talking very minor increments in map filesizes, in the kilobytes.

Buggi · Post by **Buggi** » 15 Jun 2005, 02:32

The metal map is saved as an array of bytes.

It would be easy to save hardness as an array of ushorts.

I wish I could be let in a little and informed on the changes before they're implimented so I could start on my side of things.

oh well.

-Buggi

GrOuNd_ZeRo · Post by **GrOuNd_ZeRo** » 15 Jun 2005, 02:48

I favor having tiles like in Generals, that editor is quite powerful because of the tile system paired with the blending feature.

In a tile system, you could also have tile properties like hardness, perhaps traverseability, so units will go slower through sand and faster on roads for example.

but that is mainly for the future releases when a map editor is released.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 15 Jun 2005, 08:51

I would like to suggest that the game have the capacity to render perfectly vertical cliffs, and render them properly.Some maps are really spoiled graphically because of stretching on the steeps slopes and cliffs.

I would also like to suggest that we have the capacity to produce more exxaggerated mountains/valleys than we can now, for a more epic feel.

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 15 Jun 2005, 09:52

Not as easy as it sounds, I think we should focus on more acheivable goals.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 15 Jun 2005, 10:00

An excellent point, DM. That is something that definitely needs to be attended too, even if it is difficult to do. Any steep slope that doesn't have a generic texture such as dirt is immediately rendered poorly.

Post by SJ » 15 Jun 2005, 11:50

If you want a true vertical cliff you would have to create a non blocking indestructable feature and place the i suppose.

Adding extra texture layers isnt anything I see as a priority but can be added later by someone really interested in it.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 15 Jun 2005, 13:15

Well, even a cliff with a slope of something damn close to undefiend would be good, as long as its tesxtuxtere didnt strecthjds.
sad
ssleep.

Kickban · Post by **Kickban** » 15 Jun 2005, 16:07

About layers, why not a layer for 'impassable' locations ? 2 colors -> passable, impassable. Can be used to prevent units to go where you don't want them to go, like in a buttom lake on high ground maps. Of course, planes would not be affected.

zwzsg · Post by **zwzsg** » 16 Jun 2005, 00:18

PauloMorfeo wrote:I remember to stumble across a post in on of those TA forums, where i also saw zsgssg (:oops: I'm sorry dude but you name is hard to remember... i can't even remember the name of the site ), where a dude was saying that there was no point in a modder like him to move from oTA to TA::Spring because the units format was still the same bad thing as well as the maps format.

Actually I can't mod for Spring because the unit format is too different and none of my units work. NONE!! The bulldozer blew itslef up, the Bridodon skipped some part of the script, like the endless while in the aiming and that made the menu very hard to use, and then just did unexplainable things like rising in the air, the Space Slug and the RobotechUnit weren't even appearing in the buildmenu, etc...

Back to the point of map, all those changes are nice, but will there be a map editor to take advantage of them? And also I'd really like to be able to place custom features on a map. I'm pretty sure the current format already support features, I just have no idea how to place them without changing mapconv source.

Buggi · Post by **Buggi** » 16 Jun 2005, 00:42

zwzsg wrote:And also I'd really like to be able to place custom features on a map. I'm pretty sure the current format already support features, I just have no idea how to place them without changing mapconv source.

Coming soon

├é┬¼_├é┬¼

-Buggi

Spring RTS Engine

New map format