I am tired of all of the 'tards telling myself and others that all we think about are the looks of a mod. When they themselves have no concept of what goes into a mod. I am going to explain some stuff that some of you do not seem to understand.
I am going to explain this from the perspective of gundam because I know my situation best. When starting the mod I had to do several things:
create a real concept:
Guess what? Before someone creates a mod they have to imagine what will happen, what they what to happen, how it will span out into tech levels. What will their economy be like.
Create a test version:
Try it in the engine, see what works, what doesn't and what is going to need modification. You check into what is possible, what is not and also adjust.
Documentation:
Some rough documentation is THEN created, many wannabe moders start here and skip the first few steps. However, untill you know how the game works, what it can do and what it cannot you cannot jot down any real plans. I have NO copies of the gundam plans because they were in notebooks, on napkins and sticky notes that have been long since lost or thrown away. However, I did while working on it maintain a list of to dos.
Create the model, weapons, scripts etc.
This is a very complicated area, filled with many differing things that cannot be give a specific value, for example, how capable a unit is when it aims is part of it's height, animation speeds, weapon quirks etc. This can play havoc on balance and can be a real pain in the ass. People like to think DOT is actually valid in the realm of balance but it isn't really that relevant when you get into arcing, tracking and sustained(beams) fire weapons. You also run into issues with weapon accuracy/inaccuracy. Then there is how fast the weapon actual travels. It all takes a lot of work to balance.
Unit values.
This is a very difficult area, unlike a table top game this is all happening in real time so situations can vary drastically from unit to unit. My favorite area of interest is a ratio of how many can be produce and how capable are they in battle. How many GMs can outright kill a gundam(which one shots whole squads btw), it is valid but ultimately you will have to tweak the values over time.
Aesthetics:
the most apparent feature of any mod or game. Aesthetics can really make or break your mod. My mod was designed to look good in OTA. If you look at shots of it, it looks fantastic. However, spring needs more work and all of my models are now getting reworked. However, this area is often discussed more because players can understand this versus all the meta game crap that comes with balance and ultimately just results in a note like: adjusted X cost to Z from Y.
Many moders including myself find it vexing that mods like the TA:S mods are held in such high regards when they are derivative works from stolen content. They had balance and have been tweaked ad nauseum. Players disregard other mods or call them unbalanced because they have a different balance then the TA:S mods. However the same player will then argue that XTA and BA are not the same mod and their balance is VERY different.
Well, if that is true then the other mods that are on their own should be considered a whole other game. However, this is not the case, instead players decide to take up arms against the other moders because we are to some degree derogatory when we call TA:S mods derivative. However, that is what they are and by your own descriptions of the other mods they are NOT even balanced.
so next time one of you jack offs decided to attack me or another moder for considering aesthetics or just attack our mod's balance. Remember that we actually had to think about it all from the ground up. That means that we probably know more about balance then you. Going through the process of starting from the ground up and going into completion requires a lot of planing and thought.
Graphics and gameplay.
Moderator: Moderators
From one of the threads that started this rant.gundam wasn't created in a month... the project is going on 3 years now.
I started with ugly models.
I worked out much of the game play long ago, now it is adapting to spring and adding new units that were not possible in TA.
But my origonal models looked like this:
Do not be so quick to think that because my mod looks nice that is all I spent my time on. I hate how people on this forum keep saying that... "some people work on balance over looks" or maybe it is really "some people have spent ample time on the two of them"
christ, yeah gundam is all pretty and NO balance.
Agreed... Not to mention, not makin it look good is what my dad would call half assed, and so would I!
Pour some effort in it, and don't trash shit you don't play!
Liberate your mind!
(Don't watch the video if you don't want to, just listen!)
Pour some effort in it, and don't trash shit you don't play!
Liberate your mind!
(Don't watch the video if you don't want to, just listen!)
I think you over-react to what people type around here, smoth. You've jumped my shit over the slightest comment and lumped all comments as something against gundam. If I was new to these forums I wouldn't have the slightest fuck what you were talking about. Perhaps you should tone down the constant harping on comments left by other people. Show a little toleration.
show a little tolleration? Oh, wait first and foremost this thread doesn't have to do with you! It isn't smoth's rant at madrat and secondly, this is the answer to a response I get frequently about gundam so step off my grill dog.
Seriously...
MY personal crusade to critise... man.. you are the one who replied to these threads just to jump my case.
and also... jack jumped ON ME not the other way around. So again, step off my grill and get out of nixa's thread. I was having polite conversation and I was responding to the attack of jack but you need not perpetuate it. I have been through your ilk and I will survive you.
Oh, and just another thing...
the relevance of my time spent and the process there-in the fact that I have spent the time to actually go through several resource models. You could step out of a conversation that you have NO reason to but in. I am sorry that you are pissed that I tried to explain something to you. As far as the rest........
damnit look, this is a NBA thread.. why the fuck do you have to troll me here.
Seriously...
MY personal crusade to critise... man.. you are the one who replied to these threads just to jump my case.
and also... jack jumped ON ME not the other way around. So again, step off my grill and get out of nixa's thread. I was having polite conversation and I was responding to the attack of jack but you need not perpetuate it. I have been through your ilk and I will survive you.
Oh, and just another thing...
the relevance of my time spent and the process there-in the fact that I have spent the time to actually go through several resource models. You could step out of a conversation that you have NO reason to but in. I am sorry that you are pissed that I tried to explain something to you. As far as the rest........
damnit look, this is a NBA thread.. why the fuck do you have to troll me here.
C'mon, guy, lets keep it real around here. You've went on off topic comments in about every mod thread in this forum and don't expect rebuttals at some future time regarding your commentary? I've politely asked you to show some toleration and to refrain from bringing up gundam in non-gundam threads. You even had the odacity to say how off topic others were in a thread where you went off topic long before the rebuttals by others about your commentary.
There is certainly a history of over-reacting to comments of others by you, smoth, and this just isn't rational. You cannot realistically do something and not expect others to do it, too. This is called fair play. And turnabout is all fair play in this regard.
I'm not asking too much from you, smoth, just asking for you to tone down the harsh rebuttals that you keep leaving in other people's threads. Keep up the good work on gundam. Its a good demonstration of what the Spring engine is capable of doing.
There is certainly a history of over-reacting to comments of others by you, smoth, and this just isn't rational. You cannot realistically do something and not expect others to do it, too. This is called fair play. And turnabout is all fair play in this regard.
I'm not asking too much from you, smoth, just asking for you to tone down the harsh rebuttals that you keep leaving in other people's threads. Keep up the good work on gundam. Its a good demonstration of what the Spring engine is capable of doing.
Good, we are getting to the crux of it now.
Thing is madrat, I have endure this, several times. Someone of the forum gets pissed at me but barbs me relentlessly until I snap but never tells me what I did wrong. At least you have stepped back and explained to me what I did. I am on the defensive because I am a huge troll target, people like to give me a hard time because I care and they know they can fuck with me. In real life I used to fight the person but online I cannot punch someone.
As far as brining up gundam in the s3o-.3do discussion perhaps I was not clear enough in my point. I am trying to tell you there is no reason to go through the conversion to s3o as it would add more work. I have seen a lot of what is ahead of other moders and I try and tell them what I can to help them along. Most people on this forum have one of two reactions. The first is they area but ask why the other half stubbornly fights it and will not allow me to get through. I never know which one until I get an answer that is indicative of that.
your post and jacks are alike in the fact that you both were indicating that you felt that I held graphics above balance and game design. Since gundam is my project I mention it. If I point out what is wrong with the current mod I am looking at I tend to get flamed for that.
so what do you suggest instead.
p.s. thank you for trying to resolve this in a more peaceful matter.
Thing is madrat, I have endure this, several times. Someone of the forum gets pissed at me but barbs me relentlessly until I snap but never tells me what I did wrong. At least you have stepped back and explained to me what I did. I am on the defensive because I am a huge troll target, people like to give me a hard time because I care and they know they can fuck with me. In real life I used to fight the person but online I cannot punch someone.
As far as brining up gundam in the s3o-.3do discussion perhaps I was not clear enough in my point. I am trying to tell you there is no reason to go through the conversion to s3o as it would add more work. I have seen a lot of what is ahead of other moders and I try and tell them what I can to help them along. Most people on this forum have one of two reactions. The first is they area but ask why the other half stubbornly fights it and will not allow me to get through. I never know which one until I get an answer that is indicative of that.
your post and jacks are alike in the fact that you both were indicating that you felt that I held graphics above balance and game design. Since gundam is my project I mention it. If I point out what is wrong with the current mod I am looking at I tend to get flamed for that.
so what do you suggest instead.
p.s. thank you for trying to resolve this in a more peaceful matter.
I'm not trying to bash you, just had to get those comments off my mind.
I for one am only familiar with modelling one face at a time and really don't have to time to sit down and read about all of the other effects supported by Spring. I was shocked when jc made the changes to upswing and they were exactly what I needed to get rolling on models for a mod. I've been around the TA scene since it hit the shelves of best buy in late august of 97. I roamed freely among several ta unit makers, generally making the models and scripts for them, then letting others get the credit for the ultimate unit since it was more or less unimportant to me. I like the complexity that Spring offers me in some areas, but the high end of modelling is not real important to me at this point.
Another thing you should know about me is that I am a parent and tend to try to stand back before making comments. I've always tried to measure up my audience before responding to posts, but when I get excited the whole making sense thing sometimes slips through my fingers. So bear with me.
I've been a lot of careers already, ranging from LAN guy to salesman to tradesman to teacher but parenting is perhaps the most time consuming and challenging job of them all. It is very easy to overly criticize a child and I constantly have to hold my tongue when my kids do things that I would not do. What they do isn't necessarily wrong, its just more difficult in my opinion. But then sometimes my way doesn't work for them because I'm this big knucklehead ex-jock and they are about ten percent my size. I have to be watchful that my comments to the kids don't do more harm than good in the long run. Harsh comments - no matter the sincerity - most certainly will make them tune me out and go on deaf ears, whereas well-timed and supportive comments will have more chance to bare fruit. With raising kids you never know when you're right until its long past the time to fix the wrong, which gives me an incentive to try to get it right.
I am looking at Spring and seeing a fucking gorgeous work of art. The game engine is in a constant flux of change and the changers keep getting better with time. I've noticed a lot of changes just since .72 and this has motivated me to plan out a mod for myself. I spent a lot of play time working through ideas that would be possible during .72 and .73 releases and this has taught me that Spring is still a work in progress. But it is going to offer me enough features to keep me interested.
I also have this knack for projecting feelings of mine onto others. My excited feelings about Spring in general, and jc's recent upswing enhancements to be specific in one example, has been a lightning rod for comments that are not very community friendly. Some of the long timers around here seem to have forgotten that newcomers don't want too much feedback unless they specifically need it. Think of it as if you are sitting down to eat a turkey. There is no way to rush through and eat a turkey in one sitting. But pack up the left overs and eat some here and there and pretty soon with time you've done something not possible in the short term. My feeling is that some of the long timers here are a little bit too critical of newcomers and expect them to know more about the game engine then it is possible for that person. With time these newcomers will be sharp enough to understand. But in the mean time its best to keep the commentary civil.
Instead of offering opinions so quickly, you might try the Socrates method and use questions to answer questions. This forces the question ask-er to actually come up with their own answer. Generally from what I've seen of good teachers who use the method, they do it in a way whereas the person discovering the answer is insulated from undo criticism for their former lack of knowledge. In effect its more win-win for everyone involved. Trouble is its hard as hell to do. It takes a lot of creativity.
I only challenge you to put yourself in the audience's shoes and think of how you'd take the comments before you hit the enter key. Thanks for reading this long winded rebuttal. I can respect people who take the time to talk things through and appreciate the effort. I know we don't always see eye to eye and its no big deal to tell me to fuck off. I've got pretty thick skin and forgive and forget as a matter of policy.
I for one am only familiar with modelling one face at a time and really don't have to time to sit down and read about all of the other effects supported by Spring. I was shocked when jc made the changes to upswing and they were exactly what I needed to get rolling on models for a mod. I've been around the TA scene since it hit the shelves of best buy in late august of 97. I roamed freely among several ta unit makers, generally making the models and scripts for them, then letting others get the credit for the ultimate unit since it was more or less unimportant to me. I like the complexity that Spring offers me in some areas, but the high end of modelling is not real important to me at this point.
Another thing you should know about me is that I am a parent and tend to try to stand back before making comments. I've always tried to measure up my audience before responding to posts, but when I get excited the whole making sense thing sometimes slips through my fingers. So bear with me.
I've been a lot of careers already, ranging from LAN guy to salesman to tradesman to teacher but parenting is perhaps the most time consuming and challenging job of them all. It is very easy to overly criticize a child and I constantly have to hold my tongue when my kids do things that I would not do. What they do isn't necessarily wrong, its just more difficult in my opinion. But then sometimes my way doesn't work for them because I'm this big knucklehead ex-jock and they are about ten percent my size. I have to be watchful that my comments to the kids don't do more harm than good in the long run. Harsh comments - no matter the sincerity - most certainly will make them tune me out and go on deaf ears, whereas well-timed and supportive comments will have more chance to bare fruit. With raising kids you never know when you're right until its long past the time to fix the wrong, which gives me an incentive to try to get it right.
I am looking at Spring and seeing a fucking gorgeous work of art. The game engine is in a constant flux of change and the changers keep getting better with time. I've noticed a lot of changes just since .72 and this has motivated me to plan out a mod for myself. I spent a lot of play time working through ideas that would be possible during .72 and .73 releases and this has taught me that Spring is still a work in progress. But it is going to offer me enough features to keep me interested.
I also have this knack for projecting feelings of mine onto others. My excited feelings about Spring in general, and jc's recent upswing enhancements to be specific in one example, has been a lightning rod for comments that are not very community friendly. Some of the long timers around here seem to have forgotten that newcomers don't want too much feedback unless they specifically need it. Think of it as if you are sitting down to eat a turkey. There is no way to rush through and eat a turkey in one sitting. But pack up the left overs and eat some here and there and pretty soon with time you've done something not possible in the short term. My feeling is that some of the long timers here are a little bit too critical of newcomers and expect them to know more about the game engine then it is possible for that person. With time these newcomers will be sharp enough to understand. But in the mean time its best to keep the commentary civil.
Instead of offering opinions so quickly, you might try the Socrates method and use questions to answer questions. This forces the question ask-er to actually come up with their own answer. Generally from what I've seen of good teachers who use the method, they do it in a way whereas the person discovering the answer is insulated from undo criticism for their former lack of knowledge. In effect its more win-win for everyone involved. Trouble is its hard as hell to do. It takes a lot of creativity.
I only challenge you to put yourself in the audience's shoes and think of how you'd take the comments before you hit the enter key. Thanks for reading this long winded rebuttal. I can respect people who take the time to talk things through and appreciate the effort. I know we don't always see eye to eye and its no big deal to tell me to fuck off. I've got pretty thick skin and forgive and forget as a matter of policy.
You shouldn't use insults before the other party has insulted you directly. If someone says something you disagree with, say so politely rather than telling them to fuck themselves and calling them arrogant pieces of shit while playing the appeal to authority card. Jack uses his "I care about gameplay" argument to cover up for the fact that he has no clue how modding works beyond changing plaintext data files but that's no reason to resort to foul language. Remain civil and people will respect you, fly off the handle and people will think you're a self-important asshole.
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Lolsquad_Steven
- Posts: 488
- Joined: 27 Jun 2006, 17:55
KDR_11k wrote:...Jack uses his "I care about gameplay" argument to cover up for the fact that he has no clue how modding works beyond changing plaintext data files...
KDR_11k wrote:...Remain civil and people will respect you, fly off the handle and people will think you're a self-important asshole...
WOW kdr must be like some monk on a mountain somewhere! That dude is always busting out with the wisdom and steve, bugger off I can read his post.
As a note kdr, I have received that whole "you only care about graphics" thing before. I was telling fang the other night that I was about sick of it. The first post in this thread is my reaction to that. I get a little tired of people putting the black and white stuff on me.
As a note kdr, I have received that whole "you only care about graphics" thing before. I was telling fang the other night that I was about sick of it. The first post in this thread is my reaction to that. I get a little tired of people putting the black and white stuff on me.
In all honesty I think most people hate me so I can guess that means that most people here do not hate me outside of my outbursts?Remain civil and people will respect you, fly off the handle and people will think you're a self-important asshole.
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Lolsquad_Steven
- Posts: 488
- Joined: 27 Jun 2006, 17:55
