Question
Moderators: hoijui, Moderators
Question
I cant find an AI thats good for speed metal or can you make teh setting harder?. Also how come some of the AI files on the spring site say there .dll files n there .rar files whateva that means ie:RAI v0.40 (dll) (spring v0.74b3). Because at the moment i can easily beat 3vs1 just by using heaps of planes or a krog.
It's possible to configure AAI to give a fairly hard game on metal maps the problem is that (with speed metal in particular) most of the AI devs don't really like playing metal maps so it really isn't a priority for them at all. Alot of the skill in spring is taking territory and metal spots so most of the challenge in AI development revolves around that.
Rar files are just zip files, you need the dll from inside them. Search for "winrar" on google.
Try giving the RAI's a handicap of 100 and mix them in with an AAI or something. If you don't mind a few crashes download KAI 0.12 (not the one that came with spring) and mix that in as well.
Rar files are just zip files, you need the dll from inside them. Search for "winrar" on google.
Try giving the RAI's a handicap of 100 and mix them in with an AAI or something. If you don't mind a few crashes download KAI 0.12 (not the one that came with spring) and mix that in as well.
As an AI dev, I usually consider people playing my AI with speedmetal as an insult. I know there are other AI devs who share this view including a raft of modders, who would find people playing their mod on speedmetal an insult.
Speedmetal v1 was intended as a trap to lure noobs in then to crash spring during loading. Since then it has shown up in AIs refusing to play it, which imo is good sense and shows we're doing our job making intelligent AIs.
Speedmetal v1 was intended as a trap to lure noobs in then to crash spring during loading. Since then it has shown up in AIs refusing to play it, which imo is good sense and shows we're doing our job making intelligent AIs.
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Lindir The Green
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 04 May 2005, 15:09
lindir, such an AI would be unfeasable because by the time you get anywhere near there, the holy grail of sentient AI starts pulling at you.
Anyway, speedmetal is flawed, it tries to bring about a type of gameplay by placing gigantic resources on a choke point map, and then ontop of that totally unbalancing the mods by applying terrain speed modifers, whcih AIs cant see anyway, and unbalance mods to a huge extent.
If you want easy economics and mass spamming you can go play CvC or Nanoblobz, they're much much better at it, and they're much funner, and they can be played on any map, and they're much more AI friendly than TA, so you're more likely to get a hard AI out of it. They also start faster than TA so no need to build, you can have masses of units heading for the enemy before the 20 second mark.
The AIs that have never been beaten in a full on 1v1 are certain versions of KAI and NTai running on nanoblobz. AIs cant do well usually on speedmetal, they expect one type of game and they get a totally different one.
Anyway, speedmetal is flawed, it tries to bring about a type of gameplay by placing gigantic resources on a choke point map, and then ontop of that totally unbalancing the mods by applying terrain speed modifers, whcih AIs cant see anyway, and unbalance mods to a huge extent.
If you want easy economics and mass spamming you can go play CvC or Nanoblobz, they're much much better at it, and they're much funner, and they can be played on any map, and they're much more AI friendly than TA, so you're more likely to get a hard AI out of it. They also start faster than TA so no need to build, you can have masses of units heading for the enemy before the 20 second mark.
The AIs that have never been beaten in a full on 1v1 are certain versions of KAI and NTai running on nanoblobz. AIs cant do well usually on speedmetal, they expect one type of game and they get a totally different one.
Ultimately the point is, you COULD make an AI which is almost impossible to beat on SpeedMetal, since you can ignore some problems like mex placement. But that AI would be able to play SpeedMetal and SpeedMetal alone. What's the point in spending so much effort for so little result? I know I'd much rather have an AI that can play any map just not very well than an AI can that beat the crap out of anybody 1v1 on SpeedMetal but can't even build a mex on CenterRock.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
No, you're screwed anyway.
No matter what you do tot he mod you either get the followign results:
1: Speedmetal is no longer required and the metal value becomes irrelevant, you may aswell play any map because they play the same. Nanoblobz is a good example of this.
2: The mod becomes unbalanced by the map, and you're locked into the 1 single map for playing it yet that one single map breaks the mod too.
Speedmetal si a hopeless situation. At the moment, fi you play speedmetal and you spam anythin other than nukers, antinukers, and lvl 3 mechs, then you're not playing it properly, and you're just spamming for the sake of it because no matter how hard you try you'll never break through unless you resort to super weapons and super units..
Its like tic tac toe, you should only ever have a draw if you play it that way and if you loose then you've made a silly, unbeatable defence lines on speedmetal are easy to build.
Even then, AIs really are totally f*cked, because of the way the map unbalances and rebalances the mod. Terrain speed multipliers are added to the terrain of speed metal, so all the unit speeds are multiplied by 2 or so, this makes some units under powered by a huge margin and others overpowered by an even greater margin. A prime example of this is crawling bombs. AIs cant see these speed multipliers at all. AIs make incorrect judgements about what is good and what isnt and make silly mistakes because they lack the information necessary.
So the summary is:
A: Play mods designed for easy economics rather than a phail map that just happens to make OTA economics easy while breaking the OTA style mod, examples include kernel panic, nanoblobz, CvC, and even special versions of BA and XTA, aswell as 100% handicap (double the resources).
B: Play one of the many better map that attempt to fix speedmetal while keeping masses of resources. Examples include battle spire, speedy metal2, etc...
C: Learn to play proper maps and realize that speedmetal type games might be fun but they're rather poor compared to the normal maps, there's little strategy and tactics involved and the game is much better.
Because eitherway you're never going to get an AI that works good playing speedmetal with XTA/BA, its like asking for a fix for breathing in space without using any additional stufflike space suits or air.
No matter what you do tot he mod you either get the followign results:
1: Speedmetal is no longer required and the metal value becomes irrelevant, you may aswell play any map because they play the same. Nanoblobz is a good example of this.
2: The mod becomes unbalanced by the map, and you're locked into the 1 single map for playing it yet that one single map breaks the mod too.
Speedmetal si a hopeless situation. At the moment, fi you play speedmetal and you spam anythin other than nukers, antinukers, and lvl 3 mechs, then you're not playing it properly, and you're just spamming for the sake of it because no matter how hard you try you'll never break through unless you resort to super weapons and super units..
Its like tic tac toe, you should only ever have a draw if you play it that way and if you loose then you've made a silly, unbeatable defence lines on speedmetal are easy to build.
Even then, AIs really are totally f*cked, because of the way the map unbalances and rebalances the mod. Terrain speed multipliers are added to the terrain of speed metal, so all the unit speeds are multiplied by 2 or so, this makes some units under powered by a huge margin and others overpowered by an even greater margin. A prime example of this is crawling bombs. AIs cant see these speed multipliers at all. AIs make incorrect judgements about what is good and what isnt and make silly mistakes because they lack the information necessary.
So the summary is:
A: Play mods designed for easy economics rather than a phail map that just happens to make OTA economics easy while breaking the OTA style mod, examples include kernel panic, nanoblobz, CvC, and even special versions of BA and XTA, aswell as 100% handicap (double the resources).
B: Play one of the many better map that attempt to fix speedmetal while keeping masses of resources. Examples include battle spire, speedy metal2, etc...
C: Learn to play proper maps and realize that speedmetal type games might be fun but they're rather poor compared to the normal maps, there's little strategy and tactics involved and the game is much better.
Because eitherway you're never going to get an AI that works good playing speedmetal with XTA/BA, its like asking for a fix for breathing in space without using any additional stufflike space suits or air.
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KingRaptor
- Zero-K Developer
- Posts: 838
- Joined: 14 Mar 2007, 03:44
What? I win SpeedMetal by spamming gatorsAF wrote:At the moment, fi you play speedmetal and you spam anythin other than nukers, antinukers, and lvl 3 mechs
Regardless, I agree with everything AF and Scikar have said. Really, why would you want to play SM against an AI, when there is no shortage of human players with questionable taste in maps?
metal isles doesnt unbalance mods, its a metal map, not a chokepoint with insanely high metal and wind with giant speed multipliers that break mods.
Speedmetal isnt considered a metalmap, its considered a joke map. Metal maps are maps where you can place a mex down anywhere and it'll extract, and they give average metal such as 0.5-5 not 20-60 metal
Speedmetal isnt considered a metalmap, its considered a joke map. Metal maps are maps where you can place a mex down anywhere and it'll extract, and they give average metal such as 0.5-5 not 20-60 metal
You dont get it, you will never get an ai that plays speedmetal, just as you'll never be able to turn yourself fully inside out, or turn iron into gold using magic. What you're asking for is impossible, and I dont mean impossible using the current AIs, I mean impossible ever, not without remaking speedmetal, at which point it isnt speedmetal anymore.then why are Ai's still so shit..if u disagree what is a good one for it...
You're asking for stalin to come back from the dead, ride on elvis' back, and host a ceremony dedicated to martians who've just landed to conquer earth in the middle of a solar eclipse, and then fly off into the distance on a giant mother teresa balloon.
It just aint happening.
going back to my starting question and i dont know how to install Ntai cause its sum .rai file or sumfin
Thats the point, the end user should not be able to install the latest NTai no matter how hard they try because they shouldnt be trying to begin with.
NTai is a work in progress.
RAI/QAI/AAI/etc are finished versions intended for public release.
No matter how hard I try to tell people, NTai is broken and there's no point trying I out unless your bug testing.
If you want NTai look for the NTai installer. If you cant find an installer then obviously there isnt a playable version of NTai available for you. Just watch the NTai thread.
As of XE10, NTai will not support speedmetal, I'd rather NTai disabled itself rather than showing .
