The one reason why XTA isn't fun

[genblood]

.
..
... I think small groups of lvl1 kbots can slow down lvl2 kbots ...but
they need missle towers ...and HLTs to support them. I've played
alot of 2 v 2 lately an I'm trying to learn from the other players.

I've seen that wind generators on certain maps are better then
solar. I came up with a list of what I need built first.

energy is needed and metal too. So, here is my list of what I
do if I'm playing a 2 v 2 game.

Build list when playing a XTA game

1. build 4 wind generators( if wind is good)
2. build 3 metal extractors
3. build 1 level 1 kbot factory (build 3 const. bots ASAP ...
4. build 8 wind generators or solar ( depends on map)
5. us the first const. kbot to help build with the level 1 kbots.
6. us the last 2 const. kbots to build 2 radar towers and then
2 rows of missile towers in front of main base and on both
sides of your base.
7. have your commander build another 6 metal extractors
and 1 metal storage and 1 energy storage
8. now you need to build lvl1 kbots small groups of 5 or 6
patroling in front of missle towers
9. us commander to build the other level 1 vehicle planet
10. build 4 vehicle const. units and pair them up to build
2 rows of HLTs around your missle towers
11. now have your commander build a adv vehicle and kbot
factories
12. Have you commander build solar and metal extractors,
until you have built 3 cloaked reactors and 3 adv metal
makers.
13. try to build all this in the first 15 mins of the game
14. if you haven't been attack by now. start building lvl2
kbots and vehicles an place them in front of your lvl1
units.
15. IMPORTANT ... during all this make sure to help you allie
during the game ... if he falls you will be next ...
16. if nukes are a no-no .. during the game don't waste the
resources building them :)
17. reinforce you allies defenses
18. if you can build 2 krog factories have 6 + adv vehicle const.
units helping build the krog kbots. more the better
19. also, make sure your resource collecting doubles or triples
its production. You will need the metal and energy during
the krogie building cycle ...
20 .. end game... you attack the other side with 2 krogies and
other ground units. By then you alle should have crushed
one of the enemies or cut their forces in half


Basically if you have time give 2 krogs to your team mate
and finish off the other players. If things go your way ...
you and your allie wins .....

I've only had 3 games that went this route ... Must of the
time the game crashes ... But I learned during the process


Thats my 2 cents on this subject ...

[SJ]

Here is a demo showing a game I played a few days ago. It shows that heavy core units isnt unstoppable. That krogoth probably cost about as much as the zeus hoarde that took it down. It might also give you a few ideas about other things.

And to the above poster, in a 2v2 between good players the question isnt if you have been attacked in the 15th minute but if the first raider comes in the 3rd or 5th minute.[/url]

[AzraelTheCat]

That demo is neat, but never once did core build any Goliaths, those alone I think are the more powerful of all the core units. No offence to red in that demo, but he did not play well, he could have had far more units, far faster than he did. I will have to look up the cost, I wonder how many zeus you can get for one krogie, or 2 goliaths. Let me check that out.

[AzraelTheCat]

Code: Select all

Unit         Zeus       Goliath     Krogoth
Metal        534          3950       23591
Energy      3342         22134      116664
BuildTime   5478         33786      382193

Krogoth=5 Goliaths=34 Zeus

34 Zeus vs one krogie? I'm betting on the Zeus. 34 Zeus vs 5 Goliaths? Hmm. Also, if you takeout the Krogie, it's more like Goliath=6 Zeus, can somone try to pit one Goliath against 6 Zeus? Who wins? i'm betting on the tank.

[CaptainExo]

Take in mind you're not comparing weapon damage, area of effect or firerate.

Goliath vs 6 Zeus: Some Zeuses are lost, but probable win for the Zees
Krogoth vs 34 Zees: The Zees will get owned if they are clumped together
Krogoth vs 5 Goliaths: The Kroggie will -probably- win, but don't take my word on that

[AzraelTheCat]

OK, just ran that

6 Zeus vs 1 Goliath: Goliath wins, could prolly take 7 on with the health left over.

34 Zeus vs 1 Krogoth: Krogoth won, but it was close, REALLY close. The fact that it could take 2 out at distance made the difference. Might be different if run again.

34 Zeus vs 5 Goliaths: Zees got decimated. One hurt, 2 untouched tanks rolled past thier smoking carcases. The area effect plasma blast did them in.

Trying to figure out how to spawn as Core to try Goliaths vs Kroggie.

[CaptainExo]

OK, just ran that

6 Zeus vs 1 Goliath: Goliath wins, could prolly take 7 on with the health left over.

34 Zeus vs 1 Krogoth: Krogoth won, but it was close, REALLY close. The fact that it could take 2 out at distance made the difference. Might be different if run again.

34 Zeus vs 5 Goliaths: Zees got decimated. One hurt, 2 untouched tanks rolled past thier smoking carcases. The area effect plasma blast did them in.

Trying to figure out how to spawn as Core to try Goliaths vs Kroggie.

Yeah, in that middle situation, the Krogoth has the range advantage (especially if it's near a radar) so it's got a chance of winning. The backpack missiles have some crazy area of effect damage. (often rip up several Flashes with each missile)

And area effect damage can make all the difference on clumped up unit groups.

Still, the Karganeth would own them all. But that's a different matter.

[SinbadEV]

.cheat
.team 1

[Warlord Zsinj]

Well, strategy dictates that having many firing points is better than a single big firing point.

If I am attacking a heavily entrenched base with a Krogoth, that base can target all of its weapons at my Krogoth.

However, if I attack with 34 Zeus's, that base has to split its fire between 34 different, moving targets.

Of course, lets not forget that Zeus's are pretty crap themselves. There are many units whether the cash would be much better spent.

Just out of curiosity for your testing methods, did you micromanage the Zeus's when attacking the Krogoth, or just march them at it?

Because if you tactically micromanage your units, you will find they will fare significantly better. For every annihilator blast that misses, its an extra three or four hits on the Krogoth, so if you continually surround and encircle the Krogoth the results could well be very different.

[Nemo]

I'm pretty sure this is XTA warlord...zeuses no longer suck.

i don't think the gollies would have faired as well in OTA <_<

[Redfish]

Hehe no lol, gollies are pathetic in ota. at least how they look :) Never ever seen em om the battlefield anyway. Hmm wait, I've never ever seen core on the battle field in OTA....... weird.........

[zwzsg]

OTA gollies are pretty good, one of the best level 2 core units. They are fast to produce, have huge armor and devastating gun.

[PauloMorfeo]

... a demo showing ... that heavy core units isnt unstoppable. That krogoth probably cost about as much as the zeus hoarde that took it down. ...

The Krogoth, i must say, doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as Goliaths...

Taking into consideration that Metal is the most valuable resource in TA:
1 Krogoth= 6 Goliaths= 44 Zeus

Goliath: 7,2 HP per Metal
Krogoth: 5,4 HP per Metal

Goliath: 0,1 dmg/sec/Metal
Krogoth: 0,058 dmg/sec/Metal

1 Krogoth= 1376,6 dmg/sec
6 Goliaths= 2364 dmg/sec (394 dmg/sec each)
1 Krogoth= 127551 HP
6 Goliaths= 170700 HP

I'm not sure if the Krogoths is balanced with most of the rest of XTA (it might just be) but it is clear that that Krogoth in the video was not used well. He just kept walking, and, into the middle of every enemy it could find.

OK, just ran that
...
34 Zeus vs 5 Goliaths: Zees got decimated.
...

Almost seems fair,
6 Goliaths= 2364 dmg/sec
44 Zeus= 5764 dmg/sec
6 Goliaths= 170700 HP
44 Zeus= 149600 HP
but even without testing i bet it isn't. All 6 Gollies will fire while most Zeus will not. And the Zeuses will start to disapear really fast.

OTA gollies... are fast to produce, have huge armor and devastating gun.

The OTA gollies we're so fast to produce that it was very easy to spend a full bar of metal in no time (funny thing, if i remember correctly, they produced faster than Reapers and Bulldogs). And yes, they're armor was good (more than a Guardian) and they're damage was also greater than a Guardian's. Good units to break out defenses.

[AzraelTheCat]

Almost seems fair,
6 Goliaths= 2364 dmg/sec
44 Zeus= 5764 dmg/sec
6 Goliaths= 170700 HP
44 Zeus= 149600 HP
but even without testing i bet it isn't. All 6 Gollies will fire while most Zeus will not. And the Zeuses will start to disapear really fast.

The key to this is the type of damage, Goliath is area effect, the Zeus is single target. So that smaller damage is spread out over multiple swarming units. XTA seems to have "balanced" units based on build costs. However, by doing that, they actually broke the balance. Because one larger unit is more powerful than a number of smaller units with a combined build time equal to the one unit. This does not even start to take EXP into consideration. After blowing up a swarm of units, thise Gollies now have even MORE max HP. I admit I like XTA, I think it's a bit better than OTA, but I also belive it is Core biased. Then there are unit glitches like the Annihilator cannon (prolly the only good arm static defence vs Heavy units) not shooting over DT's you use to slow the enemy down cause some nitwit decided the fireing point was from the ground, and not the laser head up top.

I am still searching for an answer to the XTA Arm vs Goliath attack assuming equal resources. As of yet, with no working Stun weapons, and other issues, I have found nothing. If anyone has ideas, I'm all ears.

SJ: Watch that demo again, and note the Lugies that assist the Zeus. I think that half the damage to it was from the massive barrage from them. There were a LOT of units attacking that Kroggie.

[Doomweaver]

You guys are not considering lots of stuff. First of all, splitting one krogoth into lots of goliaths is NOT good, because the krogoth can pick em off one by one. What I mean is, it's actually quite evenly matched, because after 4/5 of the required damage is dealt, only 4/5 of the goliaths can shoot, etc.

Also, another thing to consider is that cheaper units that you get lots of are also better than one big one in their own way, because you don't have to wait for all 34 zues' to be built, you can start pummeling your opponent after you have about 10.

Another thing - area affect. This has already been mentioned.

Another thing - lots of little units has the disadvantage that they take up a lot of space. For zues' in particular, they cannot all be shooting at once.

Another thing - on an open plain the results will be different to if a Krogoth suddenly comes over a ridge and is right next to the Zues'.

Another thing - while the Krogoth is occupied with Zues, he could be being absolutely smashed by a Annhilator.

So 25 Zues and an Annhilator probably cost about that of 34 zues, but would do significanlty more damage.

Or you could spend that money on artillery - they rock in XTA. You could get a good six or seven of them and still get 25 Zues - again you have a huge advantage.

On the other hand, a good player will use radar and cunning logitics to get the Krogoth targetting the artillery before he confronts the Zues.

On the other hand, with all that effort put into beuilding the Krogoth, the opponent could probably claim most of the map (in a 1v1) so they would have a fuck load more metal than their opponent.

On the other hand, a few Rapiers make it virtually impossible to control a large portion of the map.

On the other hand, a few Defenders make it possible again.

On the other hand, a few level 1 kbots or vehicles will kick anti-air.

etc, etc, etc.

See, it's not that simple. Only experience can work out what is better. This kind of analysis doesn't work!

[Lindir The Green]

Another thing that nobody's taking into account is that even when the krog is at 1 hp, it will still do full damage, but when there is only one zeus left it will do one zeus worth of damage.

So a krogoth is a bit more powerful than what people are saying.

As are all very heavy core units.

[Redfish]

Krogoth is very powerful but also very expensive in metal. XTA wasn't designed for spring, and it shows. So it's kinda pointless to keep discussing this. Another thing is that statistics don't tell the entire story. If they did, we might as well email someone our build strat and order and put those data in a calculator program which would then say who won. So get out there and play :D