I would play it if it was on the NES. The NES remains one of the three best systems ever released.
Secondly, Gundam has solid gameplay. The only balance issues are minor, and the units handle great.
i have a modded TA o.o
Moderator: Moderators
Gundam is unpopular because most people hate anime. I cannot blame them, there are things about anime fans that can drive me nuts. Those who have played gundam, including yourself have said that it was fun. After I got it to the point where it was fun I then added a lot of art to it.BigSteve wrote: My tip for smoth, froma players point of view - GAMEPLAY > graphics.
Apply this to gundam = mod with more than 5 regular players.
TA is almost 10 years old, the fun and gameplay part should be done now and they should get to the pretty part.
Don't call TA MOULDY, I still think it has life to it!BigSteve wrote:Putting choccy on ya tofu is no good if the tofu is mouldy ^^
*side note/ reply to cabbage*
Don't you think though that it adds to the experience. For example, take out your super.. play mario, then load it on an emulator applying the 2xSai engine, it will enhance the experience. The gameplay is solid still but it also will not have that nagging sensation that comes with an aged game.
Last edited by smoth on 24 Jan 2007, 23:50, edited 1 time in total.
Course graphics matter, I didnt say they didnt, gameplay is just more important if you want people to stick with your game or mod.
Simple as that really.
No amount of eye candy will ever make up for lack of gameplay imo, I accept people may see this the other way round but, well, thats your problem ^^
Id still take Fallout over oblivion any day of the week, or BA over... well anything for example.
Obviously if the team at EA decided to spruce up BA for us then I wouldnt complain... so long as they left the gameplay alone ^^
I was calling Gundam mouldy you dummy!
(all in good spirit though)
And neddie... youre right, although, its not 1 of 3, the NES is the single greatest system ever to grace the earth! Teenage turtles ftw ^^
Simple as that really.
No amount of eye candy will ever make up for lack of gameplay imo, I accept people may see this the other way round but, well, thats your problem ^^
Id still take Fallout over oblivion any day of the week, or BA over... well anything for example.
Obviously if the team at EA decided to spruce up BA for us then I wouldnt complain... so long as they left the gameplay alone ^^
I was calling Gundam mouldy you dummy!
(all in good spirit though)And neddie... youre right, although, its not 1 of 3, the NES is the single greatest system ever to grace the earth! Teenage turtles ftw ^^
that is what I am saying steve, people get all defensive..
key points:
TA is OLD, it should be balanced by now.
You can add effects and update the base files then ALL ta mods will benefit from it.
The gameplay would be unaffected.
People get all defensive because I said it is dull. It is dull, I can move units around etc but it needs more 'zaz.' Adding 'zaz' would not hurt anything but the moders are refusing to look at it.
It really is unfair to attack the gameplay of another mod because it is prettier. It is entirely possible that Gundam can be pretty and fun to play. It could also be possible that I put more work into gundam then most TA mods have had done on them. This could be entirely possible because I cannot sleep, I am very experienced at moding, art and programming. It could also be possible that I see a lot of work done by more casual moders and I want to see them do better so I am pushing for extra work.
There is a reason you seldom see me say things about nanoblobs or EE that are negative. Those projects have a lot of work that goes above and beyond stats changes. Regardless of how this may seem condescending or not, I think stoping at stat changes is like writing a story without a climax! The TA mods add a few units, tweak some scripts and stop there. IT SHOULDN'T stop there.
The devs have given us MANY things to help improve our mods! Oh and FYI, from someone who doesn't have his head stuck in the clouds, the default explosions can contribute to lag because they use a lot of particles. THAT ALONE should be a reason to add effects. What would I know, I have only been programing for over 12 years worked on 4 released mods, helped with I don't know how many mods, made countless unreleased mods, 2 games and have completed all of my computer science courses at uni.
For example the effect below uses only a handful of particles but looks much nicer then the default dirt wiffle.
key points:
TA is OLD, it should be balanced by now.
You can add effects and update the base files then ALL ta mods will benefit from it.
The gameplay would be unaffected.
People get all defensive because I said it is dull. It is dull, I can move units around etc but it needs more 'zaz.' Adding 'zaz' would not hurt anything but the moders are refusing to look at it.
It really is unfair to attack the gameplay of another mod because it is prettier. It is entirely possible that Gundam can be pretty and fun to play. It could also be possible that I put more work into gundam then most TA mods have had done on them. This could be entirely possible because I cannot sleep, I am very experienced at moding, art and programming. It could also be possible that I see a lot of work done by more casual moders and I want to see them do better so I am pushing for extra work.
There is a reason you seldom see me say things about nanoblobs or EE that are negative. Those projects have a lot of work that goes above and beyond stats changes. Regardless of how this may seem condescending or not, I think stoping at stat changes is like writing a story without a climax! The TA mods add a few units, tweak some scripts and stop there. IT SHOULDN'T stop there.
The devs have given us MANY things to help improve our mods! Oh and FYI, from someone who doesn't have his head stuck in the clouds, the default explosions can contribute to lag because they use a lot of particles. THAT ALONE should be a reason to add effects. What would I know, I have only been programing for over 12 years worked on 4 released mods, helped with I don't know how many mods, made countless unreleased mods, 2 games and have completed all of my computer science courses at uni.
For example the effect below uses only a handful of particles but looks much nicer then the default dirt wiffle.
-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Honestly, I wish there were a better explosion for the comm in TA mods. The current just makes me cringe.
Also, remember this concerning ta vs other games
The gameplay in TA is really quite slow. It's not slow in the catagory of managing many things at once, it's slow in the actual speed of things happening in the game.
EE and Gundam, and to the extreme - Nanoblobs, are very different. Managing tons of things has been made easier, however, the gameplay happens much faster. The things you have to manage are different battles and incursions all over the place, as well as microing specialized units that usually tend to be strung in groups all over the map. It really is quite harrowing at first.
Most of the better TA players pick up Gundam and EE quite quickly, as they have been trained by years of massive management, it's just that the management is focused in different areas, and there are a lot of split second decisions that happen, many of which can either win or lose the game for you.
however
Many of the average and medeocre ta players pick EE and Gundam up quickly, but lack the necessary skills to control and manage many different things at the pace that is required in Specifically EE. Therefore, generally their huge army gets slaughtered because the other player is very good at microing units. The entire focus of EE and for the most part, Gundam, is micromanaging your armies.
In ta based games, generally it works reasonably well to give your armies a move order at first, flank to a small degree and let armies clash.
In EE and in most cases Gundam, it's quite different. EE in particular, units have to be given line orders, and failing to properly flank armies can cost you momentum of the game, and even sometimes bring about your Doom. In Gundam, positioning of your units is crucial to a good outcome, not to mention the massive micro that is required of the actual "Gundam" units. Those must be micromanaged to a T to be truly effective, but if one makes it to your base, many times it will be curtains.
To sum it all up... It's not that TA's gameplay sucks. It's moreso that TA's gameplay focuses more around economy and base building than it does the actual battles. Don't get me wrong, in TA individual battles are important, but they are not crucial to the extent that they are in EE and Gundam.
The thing that is irritating, is that TA will never be balanced. I personally am sick of 10 years of balance refinements. Make a design document And Stick With It!!!! Then concentrate on the other things, such as remodelling all of the units, adding explosions, and something more than groundflashes. Add eyecandy. Eyecandy is win. You can attempt to hide behind the saying that "Gameplay > graphics", and that may be true, But only to an extent. After 10 years, the gameplay should have been nailed down by now. However, as previously stated, it is my opinion that TA will never be balanced, and that the TA community would die out if it ever was considered "Balanced", because the majority of the community has relied on these "Balances/imbalances" to keep the game going for them. Without that it may very well be doomed.
For what it's worth, I truly hope that Day and Noize prove me wrong. As for myself, I am tired of an RTS where balance shifts from one side to another so frequently. Some do. We agree to disagree.
Also, remember this concerning ta vs other games
The gameplay in TA is really quite slow. It's not slow in the catagory of managing many things at once, it's slow in the actual speed of things happening in the game.
EE and Gundam, and to the extreme - Nanoblobs, are very different. Managing tons of things has been made easier, however, the gameplay happens much faster. The things you have to manage are different battles and incursions all over the place, as well as microing specialized units that usually tend to be strung in groups all over the map. It really is quite harrowing at first.
Most of the better TA players pick up Gundam and EE quite quickly, as they have been trained by years of massive management, it's just that the management is focused in different areas, and there are a lot of split second decisions that happen, many of which can either win or lose the game for you.
however
Many of the average and medeocre ta players pick EE and Gundam up quickly, but lack the necessary skills to control and manage many different things at the pace that is required in Specifically EE. Therefore, generally their huge army gets slaughtered because the other player is very good at microing units. The entire focus of EE and for the most part, Gundam, is micromanaging your armies.
In ta based games, generally it works reasonably well to give your armies a move order at first, flank to a small degree and let armies clash.
In EE and in most cases Gundam, it's quite different. EE in particular, units have to be given line orders, and failing to properly flank armies can cost you momentum of the game, and even sometimes bring about your Doom. In Gundam, positioning of your units is crucial to a good outcome, not to mention the massive micro that is required of the actual "Gundam" units. Those must be micromanaged to a T to be truly effective, but if one makes it to your base, many times it will be curtains.
To sum it all up... It's not that TA's gameplay sucks. It's moreso that TA's gameplay focuses more around economy and base building than it does the actual battles. Don't get me wrong, in TA individual battles are important, but they are not crucial to the extent that they are in EE and Gundam.
The thing that is irritating, is that TA will never be balanced. I personally am sick of 10 years of balance refinements. Make a design document And Stick With It!!!! Then concentrate on the other things, such as remodelling all of the units, adding explosions, and something more than groundflashes. Add eyecandy. Eyecandy is win. You can attempt to hide behind the saying that "Gameplay > graphics", and that may be true, But only to an extent. After 10 years, the gameplay should have been nailed down by now. However, as previously stated, it is my opinion that TA will never be balanced, and that the TA community would die out if it ever was considered "Balanced", because the majority of the community has relied on these "Balances/imbalances" to keep the game going for them. Without that it may very well be doomed.
For what it's worth, I truly hope that Day and Noize prove me wrong. As for myself, I am tired of an RTS where balance shifts from one side to another so frequently. Some do. We agree to disagree.
-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
"It really is unfair to attack the gameplay of another mod because it is prettier."smoth wrote:that is what I am saying steve, people get all defensive..
key points:
TA is OLD, it should be balanced by now.
You can add effects and update the base files then ALL ta mods will benefit from it.
The gameplay would be unaffected.
People get all defensive because I said it is dull. It is dull, I can move units around etc but it needs more 'zaz.' Adding 'zaz' would not hurt anything but the moders are refusing to look at it.
It really is unfair to attack the gameplay of another mod because it is prettier. It is entirely possible that Gundam can be pretty and fun to play. It could also be possible that I put more work into gundam then most TA mods have had done on them. This could be entirely possible because I cannot sleep, I am very experienced at moding, art and programming. It could also be possible that I see a lot of work done by more casual moders and I want to see them do better so I am pushing for extra work.
well boo hoo... wiat a tick...Ummm, didnt you start this whole thing by randomly declaring the extremely popular ta mods dull and boring...
Ah yes sorry smoth, what was I thinking... I forgot they way you work, next time you trash a mod because its supposedly "dull and boring" or its "just a bunch of random stat changes" I'll remember not to get really defensive and offer an argument or rebuttal defending in case I offend you. mmk?
there wasn't a rebutal, it wasn't much of anything you just tried to dismiss the fact that the TA mods NEED eye-candy.
*sighs*
I have not randomly declared anything. I was stating something that I have felt for some time but was waiting on the moders to start something. Right now TA mods ARE stat/script tweaks with a few new units added/removed. I think they can be soo much more.
Funny, I stated facts, lets see.. ta mods... made by changing some stats and units. They lack effects and that is the only OPINION part.
There seldom is a greater design as the mods are passed from person to person with each one having a different design concept. That causes a lot of inconsistencies in the design and balance.
Funny, I never said that. I like that you arbitrarily misquote me. Should I start putting words in your MOUTH! I firmly believe there is some reason for the stats changes are made. I also know that the moders can do more and I get disappointed.
*sighs*
I have not randomly declared anything. I was stating something that I have felt for some time but was waiting on the moders to start something. Right now TA mods ARE stat/script tweaks with a few new units added/removed. I think they can be soo much more.
I didn't trash jack. I said it is boring, I am sorry that you equate that to offensive.Ah yes sorry smoth, what was I thinking... I forgot they way you work, next time you trash a mod
Funny, I stated facts, lets see.. ta mods... made by changing some stats and units. They lack effects and that is the only OPINION part.
There seldom is a greater design as the mods are passed from person to person with each one having a different design concept. That causes a lot of inconsistencies in the design and balance.
its "just a bunch of random stat changes"
Funny, I never said that. I like that you arbitrarily misquote me. Should I start putting words in your MOUTH! I firmly believe there is some reason for the stats changes are made. I also know that the moders can do more and I get disappointed.
There was no rebuttal and now you are starting an argument. Despite your anger at me, for whatever reason. At least I offer of MYSELF to help this community. You are getting offended because I say the mods need to look good! You didn't even acknowledge that I am or am not right about the effects being able to improve game performance. I could have said pink elephants are a hidden super unit in BA and you would have ignored it.I'll remember not to get really defensive and offer an argument or rebuttal defending in case I offend you. mmk?
You're so... predictable.-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Christ this topic has turned into a debate alright... I just checked it for the first time since making my post and needless to say I'm somewhat surprised by the responses i got by smoth and forboding.
Apparently you interpreted what I was saying in a different way from what I intended. So here I go again, this time in some more detail so hopefully you don't misinterprate me and get all defensive again.
What I was trying to say is that YES I think TA based mods (and by that I meant mods similar in gameplay to OTA, which I consider to be AA/BA/XTA) could use some love in the graphical area. I did NOT mean Gundam/EE/Nanoblobs when i said TA based mods, sorry for the misunderstanding - those mods I believe are infact decent benchmarks for the others to try and match so far as graphical quality goes. I think Gundam is the best looking mod in spring at the moment by quite a way, and clearly a lot of work has gone into the graphical elements of that mod.
My implication was/is that there doesnt appear to be someone or a group of people actively working on improving unit models, textures, effects, sounds etc in AA/BA/XTA and if there is (I saw your post neddie) I am not aware of it. Certainly I havn't seen any posts in the BA thread about graphical improvements to the mod, and where there are people working on things, it would appear to be individuals doing it for fun in their spare time, who no doubt will not cover the entirety of jobs that would need to be done, and don't collaborate with each other to get a common approach and make sure that they arn't doing the same units/sounds or whatever.
More importantly for the discussion in this topic, I strongly believe that gameplay comes before graphics. I don't deny that people want to see nice graphics and hear good sounds but it is not a requirement of a mod/game for it to be successful. The proof is all around us, and spring is a prime example. AA/BA/XTA are the most popular mods in Spring by a long way for a number of reasons, and I'd say largely because of the quality of gameplay they offer. They are like I said pretty ugly in terms of graphics, certainly nothing compared to Gundam and EE yet still they dominate the player base of spring.
Don't come back to me replying with an array of other reasons why these mods are in-fact the most popular and why EE/Gundam/Nanoblobs are not played as much, because that's not what we're talking about here.
AA/BA/XTA inherently offer a vast amount of gameplay which can be explored for a long, long time. Ask myself, Tired, Steve, Day or anyone else with a large amount of in game time (and by that I mean around 1000 hours or more) and I'd think we'll pretty much all admit to not having mastered BA/XTA. Constantly we adapt, improve on certain things and invent new strategies and build ques on top of those we already know. Simply put, these mods offer scale, a steep learning curve and an enjoyable gaming experience which means people get bored far less quickly.
Mods/games that have impressive graphics but lack in playability ineviatibly get played for a short period of time then the vast majority of whatever player base it gets leave to play more enjoyable mods/games. Graphics are nice, but they won't keep people playing your game for long. Gameplay inherently keeps people interested, keeps them playing - Look at all the old games that still have strong player bases despite frankly poor graphics by current standards. These games survive because of the quality of gameplay they offer, clearly not because of graphics. Visuals and sounds do undoubtedly make an impact on the way a mod/game plays but its the cherry on the cake so to speak. GAMEPLAY TAKES PRIORITY.
Supcom is another example. Why do so many of us play spring mods and not supcom when we have free access to the beta whenever we want? Supcom is visually quite literally years ahead of spring in terms of the graphics features they can use, and it's visually very high detail, graphically well done and miles better looking than spring mods in general, but, we still rather play spring, because it's mods offer better gameplay.
Gundam and EE particularly I'd consider to be more noob friendly - the learning curve is not so steep and people learn how to play almost as good as the veterans pretty quickly. Perhaps these mods don't have such a dynamic variety of gameplay that OTA related mods offer. You said smoth that TA based mods are bland and without excitement, that you want explosions and colours. Well personally I'd say the excitement doesnt come from the visuals but from the intensity of the games themselves, and I personally think that BA/XTA offer a more dynamic gaming experience than Gundam does currently. This is only my opinion, dont flame me for this please ¬_¬
Yes, AA/BA/XTA updates are largely script related and there has been no considerable improvements graphically or sound wise in a long time in either, and yes I'd like to see that change, but frankly I don't really care if the graphics are never improved, it would be nice but it's not something i see as a necessity to keep me playing these mods.
S'all for now ¬_¬
Apparently you interpreted what I was saying in a different way from what I intended. So here I go again, this time in some more detail so hopefully you don't misinterprate me and get all defensive again.
What I was trying to say is that YES I think TA based mods (and by that I meant mods similar in gameplay to OTA, which I consider to be AA/BA/XTA) could use some love in the graphical area. I did NOT mean Gundam/EE/Nanoblobs when i said TA based mods, sorry for the misunderstanding - those mods I believe are infact decent benchmarks for the others to try and match so far as graphical quality goes. I think Gundam is the best looking mod in spring at the moment by quite a way, and clearly a lot of work has gone into the graphical elements of that mod.
My implication was/is that there doesnt appear to be someone or a group of people actively working on improving unit models, textures, effects, sounds etc in AA/BA/XTA and if there is (I saw your post neddie) I am not aware of it. Certainly I havn't seen any posts in the BA thread about graphical improvements to the mod, and where there are people working on things, it would appear to be individuals doing it for fun in their spare time, who no doubt will not cover the entirety of jobs that would need to be done, and don't collaborate with each other to get a common approach and make sure that they arn't doing the same units/sounds or whatever.
More importantly for the discussion in this topic, I strongly believe that gameplay comes before graphics. I don't deny that people want to see nice graphics and hear good sounds but it is not a requirement of a mod/game for it to be successful. The proof is all around us, and spring is a prime example. AA/BA/XTA are the most popular mods in Spring by a long way for a number of reasons, and I'd say largely because of the quality of gameplay they offer. They are like I said pretty ugly in terms of graphics, certainly nothing compared to Gundam and EE yet still they dominate the player base of spring.
Don't come back to me replying with an array of other reasons why these mods are in-fact the most popular and why EE/Gundam/Nanoblobs are not played as much, because that's not what we're talking about here.
AA/BA/XTA inherently offer a vast amount of gameplay which can be explored for a long, long time. Ask myself, Tired, Steve, Day or anyone else with a large amount of in game time (and by that I mean around 1000 hours or more) and I'd think we'll pretty much all admit to not having mastered BA/XTA. Constantly we adapt, improve on certain things and invent new strategies and build ques on top of those we already know. Simply put, these mods offer scale, a steep learning curve and an enjoyable gaming experience which means people get bored far less quickly.
Mods/games that have impressive graphics but lack in playability ineviatibly get played for a short period of time then the vast majority of whatever player base it gets leave to play more enjoyable mods/games. Graphics are nice, but they won't keep people playing your game for long. Gameplay inherently keeps people interested, keeps them playing - Look at all the old games that still have strong player bases despite frankly poor graphics by current standards. These games survive because of the quality of gameplay they offer, clearly not because of graphics. Visuals and sounds do undoubtedly make an impact on the way a mod/game plays but its the cherry on the cake so to speak. GAMEPLAY TAKES PRIORITY.
Supcom is another example. Why do so many of us play spring mods and not supcom when we have free access to the beta whenever we want? Supcom is visually quite literally years ahead of spring in terms of the graphics features they can use, and it's visually very high detail, graphically well done and miles better looking than spring mods in general, but, we still rather play spring, because it's mods offer better gameplay.
Gundam and EE particularly I'd consider to be more noob friendly - the learning curve is not so steep and people learn how to play almost as good as the veterans pretty quickly. Perhaps these mods don't have such a dynamic variety of gameplay that OTA related mods offer. You said smoth that TA based mods are bland and without excitement, that you want explosions and colours. Well personally I'd say the excitement doesnt come from the visuals but from the intensity of the games themselves, and I personally think that BA/XTA offer a more dynamic gaming experience than Gundam does currently. This is only my opinion, dont flame me for this please ¬_¬
Yes, AA/BA/XTA updates are largely script related and there has been no considerable improvements graphically or sound wise in a long time in either, and yes I'd like to see that change, but frankly I don't really care if the graphics are never improved, it would be nice but it's not something i see as a necessity to keep me playing these mods.
S'all for now ¬_¬
Wow, nice reply demo, although it should be noted that Gundam's current sounds are garbage and are up for a revamp after the graphics.
Thing is demo, I asked people several times if they would give me a demo recording of a good game and all I get is a link to the replay site. Not very useful. I want to watch some exciting games with a lot of push and pull. Most the games I see are prolonged porc fests or overwhelming unbalanced teams. I was hoping one of the masters like steve, cabbage or the others would hook me up with a demo.
I still do not understand though demo, in 10 years TA has not achieved balance. Is the game not fun? We have all played it for so long now. I think that proves it is fun but it needs some sprucing up. Honestly, I offer assistance with effects to anyone who needs it. I have said it several times, I will make effects on request. I know neddie is going to help some with a few mods and he has my help should he need it. The same goes for Fang, Flozi, GMN, VonGratz or Nemo.
Thing is demo, I asked people several times if they would give me a demo recording of a good game and all I get is a link to the replay site. Not very useful. I want to watch some exciting games with a lot of push and pull. Most the games I see are prolonged porc fests or overwhelming unbalanced teams. I was hoping one of the masters like steve, cabbage or the others would hook me up with a demo.
I still do not understand though demo, in 10 years TA has not achieved balance. Is the game not fun? We have all played it for so long now. I think that proves it is fun but it needs some sprucing up. Honestly, I offer assistance with effects to anyone who needs it. I have said it several times, I will make effects on request. I know neddie is going to help some with a few mods and he has my help should he need it. The same goes for Fang, Flozi, GMN, VonGratz or Nemo.
Yeah i remember being annoyed at that before because you were bitching that my reply with link to replay site didnt explain enough. Frankly i find that the replay site manages itself. The good replays are obvious by name and who uploads them, and usually have several comments and ratings to distinguish them from the rest.
If you want to see games with a lot of ebb and flow, check out anything with "1v1" in the title or "X" player vs "Y" player. Also there are a few replays with "experienced players" in the titles that are worth a watch - team games, i think LCC vs a combination of Cabbage, Tired, Day, Ray and someone else.
To be honest though if you want to catch some good replays, download the mod and go spec some games yourself. Most people arn't anal about having spec's watch their games, but occassionally you'll get autohosts which dont allow spectators, or hosts that kick you before the game starts (which really annoys me).
If people want to spruce up the graphics and sounds in mods like BA and XTA I'd suggest starting a new topic specifically highlighting something like "Graphics revamp in BA" and post in the main thread for whatever mod it is, i.e. for BA it would be "Balanced Annihilation 4.5"
Caydr always wanted to do things on his own without help, but I would imagine Day and Noize wouldn't mind someone worthy working on graphics and sounds, explosions etc for BA so long as the community gets a vote on what they like and what they dont.
So far as balance goes, its something which each person has different views on. Balance is not some divine formula that will impress every single person and make a mod perfect (because the concept of perfection also vary's from person to person, not to mention being something that can never really be attained). I like to consider balance more generally - a mod that is fun to play and offers a large variation in plausible strategy and tactics where the same thing isnt dont every game I would consider as well balanced. A mod where every single unit and structure did the same thing would be pretty much balanced, but thats no fun is it?
Players with less experience in TA mods also tend to complain more about bad balance but this is because they dont have enough knowledge of the mod to KNOW the counters to certain tactics, strategy, units etc. They'll say gunships are unbalanced when they die to them quickly, only after making no anti-air, and similar things.
Lastly, replays and spectating become more interesting as one develops a more specific interest in every element of the game at stake. XTA and BA games may appear reasonably boring to someone who wants to see huge battles constantly for an entire game and nothing more, but theres much more to these mods than huge battles between opposing forces.
All the small things add up and when you begin to analyze such mods more intensively, even the small battles can be interesting to watch - 5 rockos versus 4 instigators and such, it can be interesting to watch how each player micro's the units and how one takes the advantage over the other. Even build ques become interesting - how can I improve my own start on a particular map - does the guy i'm watching do it better, how can I adapt his que to make it better again - how can I counter someone that starts like he does.
All these sort of things that the majority of people pay little or no attention to and only want to see nukes and huge mindless battles. From the perspective of someone who doesnt know much about the mod they are watching, only the big picture is seen, and only when you start to learn more about the mod do you observe things you previously never would have and break the big picture down into specific aspects, which makes it much more interesting to watch.
If you want to see games with a lot of ebb and flow, check out anything with "1v1" in the title or "X" player vs "Y" player. Also there are a few replays with "experienced players" in the titles that are worth a watch - team games, i think LCC vs a combination of Cabbage, Tired, Day, Ray and someone else.
To be honest though if you want to catch some good replays, download the mod and go spec some games yourself. Most people arn't anal about having spec's watch their games, but occassionally you'll get autohosts which dont allow spectators, or hosts that kick you before the game starts (which really annoys me).
If people want to spruce up the graphics and sounds in mods like BA and XTA I'd suggest starting a new topic specifically highlighting something like "Graphics revamp in BA" and post in the main thread for whatever mod it is, i.e. for BA it would be "Balanced Annihilation 4.5"
Caydr always wanted to do things on his own without help, but I would imagine Day and Noize wouldn't mind someone worthy working on graphics and sounds, explosions etc for BA so long as the community gets a vote on what they like and what they dont.
So far as balance goes, its something which each person has different views on. Balance is not some divine formula that will impress every single person and make a mod perfect (because the concept of perfection also vary's from person to person, not to mention being something that can never really be attained). I like to consider balance more generally - a mod that is fun to play and offers a large variation in plausible strategy and tactics where the same thing isnt dont every game I would consider as well balanced. A mod where every single unit and structure did the same thing would be pretty much balanced, but thats no fun is it?
Players with less experience in TA mods also tend to complain more about bad balance but this is because they dont have enough knowledge of the mod to KNOW the counters to certain tactics, strategy, units etc. They'll say gunships are unbalanced when they die to them quickly, only after making no anti-air, and similar things.
Lastly, replays and spectating become more interesting as one develops a more specific interest in every element of the game at stake. XTA and BA games may appear reasonably boring to someone who wants to see huge battles constantly for an entire game and nothing more, but theres much more to these mods than huge battles between opposing forces.
All the small things add up and when you begin to analyze such mods more intensively, even the small battles can be interesting to watch - 5 rockos versus 4 instigators and such, it can be interesting to watch how each player micro's the units and how one takes the advantage over the other. Even build ques become interesting - how can I improve my own start on a particular map - does the guy i'm watching do it better, how can I adapt his que to make it better again - how can I counter someone that starts like he does.
All these sort of things that the majority of people pay little or no attention to and only want to see nukes and huge mindless battles. From the perspective of someone who doesnt know much about the mod they are watching, only the big picture is seen, and only when you start to learn more about the mod do you observe things you previously never would have and break the big picture down into specific aspects, which makes it much more interesting to watch.
A game can only be 'more balanced' not 'perfectly balanced'. A lot of it depends on the community, and how they are playing the game. Something can go weeks or months without being discovered, and then becomes the dominant strategy.
Moreover BA/AA/XTA are not TA. They are radically different to TA, and radically different to eachother. IMO, Gundam and EE have more in common with eachother than XTA and BA do. Strategies and principles that work similarly in BA, EE, and Gundam just do not work in the slightest in XTA.
XTA has a totally different pace (Things build slower, move slower), no dedicated AA, is focused more on static defense than mobile offense, and has poor mobile artillery.
Hell, id say XTA is about as different to most mods as Nanoblobs is. Scratch that: Nanoblobs is actually closer to Gundam (Exponential econ, no/poor defensive structures) than XTA is to BA.
BA and XTA are not just a bunch of small stat changes, they have radically different principles from eachother, and from TA. All they share in common is a few models. Thats not so bad, is it? People get to realise their design ideas using what they have on hand. Not everyone is as talented a 3d modeller as Smoth and Fang, but that doesnt mean they arent really good game designers.
In the end though, all these mods are more like TA than they are like, say, Starcraft or Age of Empires. The economy especially is very similiar: Two resources, one (usually) based on land control, one based on an exponential model, focus on income/expenditure rather than amassing finite resource, etc.
Moreover BA/AA/XTA are not TA. They are radically different to TA, and radically different to eachother. IMO, Gundam and EE have more in common with eachother than XTA and BA do. Strategies and principles that work similarly in BA, EE, and Gundam just do not work in the slightest in XTA.
XTA has a totally different pace (Things build slower, move slower), no dedicated AA, is focused more on static defense than mobile offense, and has poor mobile artillery.
Hell, id say XTA is about as different to most mods as Nanoblobs is. Scratch that: Nanoblobs is actually closer to Gundam (Exponential econ, no/poor defensive structures) than XTA is to BA.
BA and XTA are not just a bunch of small stat changes, they have radically different principles from eachother, and from TA. All they share in common is a few models. Thats not so bad, is it? People get to realise their design ideas using what they have on hand. Not everyone is as talented a 3d modeller as Smoth and Fang, but that doesnt mean they arent really good game designers.
In the end though, all these mods are more like TA than they are like, say, Starcraft or Age of Empires. The economy especially is very similiar: Two resources, one (usually) based on land control, one based on an exponential model, focus on income/expenditure rather than amassing finite resource, etc.