Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!

[ZellSF]

I think snipers will be fine when they get their energy cost to fire back.

Maybe.

[duncs]

I think snipers will be fine when they get their energy cost to fire back.

Maybe.

I find that the best thing for sharpshooters/snipers are dragon's teeth between your base and the enemy's base.

lame? maybe. but that's what I have to do to save myself from just getting ENTIRELY wasted randomly about 30 mins in.

I also build dragon's eyes for spotting them quite a bit in front of my main line, so when they shoot I can see them.

[Lippy]

Just giving a heads up that I'll make a nice list of what needs to be changed (according to forum) sometime today. Just setting up new wireless router atm.

[Lippy]

Snipers: give them an energy cost to fire (it was 500 before), however many people do not believe this will be enough to "balance" them.

Sort out core radar bug (has no LOS)

Nerf stealth fighter to ground damage greatly

Nerf tremor (slightly?)

Nerf EMP bomber (slightly?)

Make emp missle, tactical nuke & anti-radar missle shoot only 1 missle at a time (like the nuke)

Make most large units crush DTs: includes heavy tanks (goliaths, bulldogs etc.. ) heavy kbots (sumo, fatboy) & lvl3 http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... &start=720

Sort out amphibious tanks: http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... &start=670

Make walking bombs slightly more useful

Decrease luger price a bit: http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... ht=#156164


New ones:

Give peeper its flare back; as i find fighters are more useful as scouts due to their flares. (open to discussion)

Sumo does not seem to be able to fire over stuff like DT, even though its weapon is very high up. (fps mode illustrates this best)


I'll try and keep this edited to keep it up to date before actual release

I'm sure i left some out, so any prompts will help Day out.

[Klopper]

-Dragonteeth should be crushable by heavy t2 and all t3 units and walls
by heavy t3 units

-Stealth Fighters and Seaplane Fighters need to be fixed to not fly out of the screen anymore

-Stealth Fighters should be nerfed against ground targets (maybe give them a low-damage missile for anti-ground with slower rate of fire)

-Snipers should need energy to shoot

-imho LRMT nerf should be reverted and maybe LRMT even be buffed a
little to be of some greater use since it is quite expensive (maybe needs
to be discussed)

-t1 air transports imho can lift too heavy stuff atm (banthas, fatboys,
bulldogs and stuff...)

-Banthas might need a buff to even out the Krogoths improvements for
Arm

-Core radar has no LOS

-the Banisher has a minor graphical glitch (muzzle flash has a delay of 2
seconds or so)

-i remember somebody having posted some issues with the targeting of
emp and tactical nuke silos (not sure if this is still relevant)

-the Bantha might need a buff to even out the Krogoths improvement for
Arm

-the Commando might need some kind of modification (no good ideas
myself so far though)

-AK's HP might need a slight nerf

-i remember there were some suggestions earlier in this thread to modify
the Luger and the Pillager in their roles (like making the Luger an emp
artillery or something)

-there was some discussion earlier if amphibious tanks should travel a
little faster underwater or their stats buffed a little

-somebody suggested increasing units' speed in shallow water slightly

[hunterw]

all these changes sound pretty good

-somebody suggested increasing units' speed in shallow water slightly

+1

-there was some discussion earlier if amphibious tanks should travel a
little faster underwater or their stats buffed a little

about this...i had an idea for a new unit that would make amphib tanks a lot more useful. how about making an amphib tank that shoots torpedoes underwater, and anti-air rockets above? as it is, groups of only amphibious tanks are highly vulnerable to submarines underwater, and aircraft above. don't let them stand toe-to-toe with a lvl 1 sub or anything, but perhaps two of them could equal one sub in firepower.

as it is, amphibious tanks aren't that viable of a unit to use.

[jellyman]

Does anyone think the fido could do with a buff? Or maybe I didn't use them properly when I built half a dozen of them the other day and they couldn't seem to do more than diddly squat damage.

[hunterw]

fidos are a pretty weird unit

they are pretty fast, they have a really nice, long range, and their bullet travels pretty fast, but you are right, they do very little damage.

i'm not sure what role they should fill, but arm's lvl 2 kbots certainly aren't underpowered, so i'm not sure what i would suggest for them to do. maybe give them a weak AA rocket or something and make them a multi-purpose.

[Foxomaniac]

Fidos are a great mobile skirmish force when paired with EMP spiders, but that's about it.

I agree that they COULD use a little buff for their OFF mode, ON mode offers increased damage and a grenade-like arc, allowing you to fire over hills like thuds but... It's only useful against units.

Other then being a mobile d-fens force when paired with EMP spiders, I don't see much use for fidos either.

Fido dido needs some love (or maybe 7 up :p).


As for EMP silo / tac nuke silo :

Their aim is a little dodgy - it needs fixing? definitely.

I'd also support hunterw's idea of torp/anti air support amphib unit.

As for amphib units in general, you should utilize smoth's speed change script to allow them to go faster underwater.

Also, how about lowering the buildtime and energy costs of the skuttle?

It's barely useful in it's current state, I haven't seen a skuttle in ages.

Another quarrel I have is with the core Geo-battery, the Behemoth.

It's a very expensive and niche unit - most maps don't even have thoughtful geo-vent placement and at 3k metal - the behemoth is worth about 3/4th of a fusion.

Even then, building it in a "contested area" is :

A. Risky.
B. Consumes a lot of resources that are better spent on military units .
C. By the time you finish building it, you already pushed the enemy out.

Hence, I suggest greatly lowering it's cost in all ways :

Current costs :

Health : 7500
Metal/Energy cost: 2949/32428
Build time: 59640
Energy Production : 450

Suggested Costs :

M/E : ~2000 / ~28000
Build Time : ~48000

Compared to Arm's Prude :

Health: 12500
Metal/Energy cost: 1058/24230
Build time: 41347
Energy Production : 750.


One of the reasons I build the behemoth is because it doesn't explode like a NUKE when it dies.

Of course, this whole Behemoth vs Prude thing is open to discussion.

The core commando is fine... as a paralyzing unit.

Needs faster capture speeds I believe. (again, open to discussion :p).

Blah blah blah blah.

~ End.

[Pxtl]

Fidos are fine - they're just not heavy combat unit that's all. If I were to give a Fido any "special power" it would be stealth or longer sight range (like 500)... but even that would be unnecessary. Traditionally, the problem with the Fido was that Arm was short on an L2 assault Kbot (Zeuses are weak in some mods), so some people would try using the Fido for that purpose and discard it as useless - when it's not for that. Fast, long-ranged units are deadly against assault units. The catch is that, since wearing down assault units takes time and micro... you can only really do this job in a map where there's an open, unoccupied battlefield where you've room to manoever. You don't see many such battlefields in TA.

The real challenge to balancing the Fido is to keep it distinct from it's similar brother, the Mav.

edit: as for teh Behemoth, it has a very specific special use: its range. There are very, very few maps where it's useful, because of the low profile, high cost, and need for a geothermal event - but in a map where you need an intermediary between BLODs (long ranged, low effective-DPS) and LRPCs (mid ranged, high effective-DPS) and you have a geotherm available on the frontline, the Behomoth fits in nicely.

[Neddie]

The Fido in XTA needs a tweak, not the Fido in BA.

[NOiZE]

Another quarrel I have is with the core Geo-battery, the Behemoth.

It's a very expensive and niche unit - most maps don't even have thoughtful geo-vent placement and at 3k metal - the behemoth is worth about 3/4th of a fusion.

Even then, building it in a "contested area" is :

A. Risky.
B. Consumes a lot of resources that are better spent on military units .
C. By the time you finish building it, you already pushed the enemy out.

Indeed it feels a bit useless, perhaps we should remove it.

[NOiZE]

-Stealth Fighters and Seaplane Fighters need to be fixed to not fly out of the screen anymore

Does it still happen with 74b3 ?

[Neddie]

Yes, it does, the tags are still not fixed as far as I can tell. They must be related to something else... ask Fang, he knows which of the special tags cause issues.

[Machiosabre]

Indeed it feels a bit useless, perhaps we should remove it.

that's a bit extreme, it's still very good on those few maps that work with it, though maybe it should be replaced by a steam powered doomsday

[Lippy]

Indeed it feels a bit useless, perhaps we should remove it.

Useless????!!! I find this unit, extremely useful; lets look at the stats.

Of course, this whole Behemoth vs Prude thing is open to discussion.

Don't compare it to the prude. IMO It's not supposed to be a prude replacement. If anything i would even doubt it should be considered a economy building (hence it using up 300 EPS when firing) but a defensive unit.
It has the furtherest plasma range in the game; it even outranges a cruise missile ship.
It has a ridiculous amount of DPS at 900
It has 7500 health
It produces 450 E.

And all this for only (yes only) Metal/Energy cost: 2949/32428

Now if you compare a heavy plasma cannon:

Health: 3840
Metal/Energy cost: 2318/16115
CORTOAST_GUN 123.33 DPS

So it has double the life, 720% higher DPS, 315 more range, produces 450 extra E and all this for only 631 extra metal, 16308 extra E (which will pay for itself in exactly 36.24 seconds) and double the build time.

If anything; this niche unit is one hell of an overpowered unit, if you manage to get a good spot to build it! (I agree its a risky build, but so is building a prude in its [frontline] position)

On the topic of commandos:

The core commando is fine...

Are you sure about that, I recommend you take another closer look at this unit while i go off and play a game as core... *hint*hint*

EDIT: lolz, i just glanced through my post, and from the tone, it does not sound like im a very nice person :p

[el_matarife]

Anyone have any thoughts about fast attack hovertanks? I've seen these several times recently. They're pretty powerful and tough to stop, especially at sea. I think they could use a bit of a cost increase since they costs less than Flashes or Instigators right now.

[MR.D]

Here is a small list of units that have been mentioned through the thread, and some others that have surfaced through weeks of playing 4.5.

** OP UNITS **

#1 Lvl-1 light tanks (Flash/Gator) too much armor.

#2 Maverick = Auto heal is too much at its current # of Hp restored per tick, requiring mass overkill damage to knock down mavs, best bet would be to give it more HP, and reduce both the rate and speed of auto-repair.

#3 Sniper = Needs its energy per shot cost restored to old #'s, it would also be nice if Snipers would uncloak/be radar visible at the moment they fire untill they recloak, at which time they would become stealth again.( if this isn't already the case)

#4 Tremor = Unit just does way too much damage with too large of AOE, sure its a fairly easy unit to kill, but it has more range than any "fixed" Artillery short of Behemoth and Bertha, and hits harder than a Toaster per DPS tick, it needs to be toned down a bit.

#5 Hawks/Vamps ="Air Superiority" fighters, not ground Superiority, and they should reflect that, otherwise why bother build gunships?

#6 Dragon's Teeth = Been mentioned earlier in this post as to which units should crush LVL-1 teeth, and LVL-2 Walls, Read back a few pages to find the detailed list.

#7 = ppl that argue that everything is fine, because they say so.
*----*

** Underpowered Units **

#1 Recluse Rkt-Spider = pretty inneffective unit it seems, armor is too weak to sustain an attack against any defended position or otherwise, DPS is fair but also feels lacking.

#2 GIMP (core) = too slow and fragile to be usefull as an Amphibious assault unit, If its Torpedos were slightly better or if it moved a bit faster underwater it might be viable, as is tanks and hovers do this job far better per cost and time on delivery, in 100 games I've seen it used... never.

#3 Fake Commander = doesn't have fake commander explosion to immitate a Commander's death, doesn't have the Commander Minimap Icon, and also has differing cost stats when viewed over.
***
Real Commander costs listed as 2700 (I think), and Fake commander costs shows as 970 when browsed over with the Mouse cursor so its easy to see and ignore the fakes.
***

#4 Luger/Pillager = They just feel weak, and their shots don't seem to do a whole lot of damage against defences or otherwise.

#5 Bladewing = just too weak and easy to kill, currently it dies to 1 AA missle.
Bladewing needs to get an Exp Health gain during combat, which means once it has hit a target its EXP becomes maxxed but its Health never increases high enough to survive more than 2 AA missles.

#6 Triton = for its size and costs it needs to fill a role inbetween the Core Gator and Poison Arrow.

#7 Advanced Fusions = Far too easy to kill, should explode with force and damage of 3 Fusion plants, not 10x. An attack with 5 heavy bombers can kill the Advanced Fusion in 1 pass, no need for a return strike if all bombers dropped their bombs.

#8 Anti-Nuke Silo = Far too easy to kill vs its costs and time to build, it needs its Cloaking back, upping the cloaking costs would be a fair tradeoff, since scouts and Radar planes can uncover it, and it will always be visible once seen during a "ghosted buildings enabled" game.

#9 Targeting Facility/Seismic Sensor = Both of these units, while usefull, are not built or used often enough to be concidered a vital unit.
If combined together into 1 unit instead of 2, I believe it would be built more often and fit a better niche in mid-late games, M+E costs would have to be adjusted.

#10 Commando = It could use faster Capture strength, so it might be capable of capturing frozen lvl-1 or lower cost LVL-2 units before its freeze shot wears off.

#11 ARM/CORE Minelayer = Needs its ANTI-Minefield Missles back, people seem to be using tons of mines during recent games, and at its LOW Hp and speed, the minelayers are easy targets anyway.

#12 ARM PACKO AA = Unit's Deploy speed is pathetic, and quite often enemy units are already attacking it or have passed over before it starts shooting at planes. Needs its Opening/Closing animations sped up.

As is, mines have become quite powerfull and usefull again, and this is ok and not overpowered, the problem is there is no way to deal with them anymore. OTA minelayers had the Anti mine missles to balance against the strength and abuse of mines, its CLearing missle needs to come back.

We need a unit that can deal with mines, rather than just sending in waves of scout units or hunting and pecking at a field with light artillery to clear a field. It would also be a good idea to add a unique sound to the clearing missle thats loud enough to be heard when the missle is launched to alert you and the enemy to its use.

[Acidd_UK]

Here's the things I agree with

**OP Units**
#3 Sniper = Needs its energy per shot cost restored to old #'s
#5 Hawks/Vamps ="Air Superiority" fighters, not ground Superiority, and they should reflect that, otherwise why bother build gunships?
#6 Dragon's Teeth = Been mentioned earlier in this post as to which units should crush LVL-1 teeth, and LVL-2 Walls, Read back a few pages to find the detailed list.

** Underpowered Units **
#2 GIMP (core) = too slow and fragile to be usefull as an Amphibious assault unit
#3 Fake Commander = doesn't have fake commander explosion to immitate a Commander's death, doesn't have the Commander Minimap Icon, and also has differing cost stats when viewed over.
#4 Luger/Pillager = They just feel weak, and their shots don't seem to do a whole lot of damage against defences or otherwise.
#6 Triton = for its size and costs it needs to fill a role inbetween the Core Gator and Poison Arrow.

[Foxomaniac]

Lippy, if you read the rest of my "Commando is fine..." post you'l find that I added the following : As a paralyzing unit.

Oh, and behemoth is SO accurate that it actually causes the full 900 DPS, right?!

Name me a map, that isn't completely forgotten in oblivion where you can make good use of the behemoth.

.

I agreed that It can use a higher capture speed, equal to that of 2.5x coms (750 per commando?) - perhaps a slight HP nerf to balance it out?.

@ Mr.D's post :

Things I agree with :

#3 Sniper = Needs its energy per shot cost restored to old #'s, it would also be nice if Snipers would uncloak/be radar visible at the moment they fire untill they recloak, at which time they would become stealth again.( if this isn't already the case)

#5 Hawks/Vamps ="Air Superiority" fighters, not ground Superiority, and they should reflect that, otherwise why bother build gunships?


#6 Dragon's Teeth = Been mentioned earlier in this post as to which units should crush LVL-1 teeth, and LVL-2 Walls, Read back a few pages to find the detailed list. (I don't particulary care actually, since I never had problems with DT but hey - i'll throw that in as support)


** Underpowered Units **

#2 GIMP (core) = too slow and fragile to be usefull as an Amphibious assault unit, If its Torpedos were slightly better or if it moved a bit faster underwater it might be viable, as is tanks and hovers do this job far better per cost and time on delivery, in 100 games I've seen it used... never.

#5 Bladewing = just too weak and easy to kill, currently it dies to 1 AA missle.
Bladewing needs to get an Exp Health gain during combat, which means once it has hit a target its EXP becomes maxxed but its Health never increases high enough to survive more than 2 AA missles.

#9 Targeting Facility/Seismic Sensor = Both of these units, while usefull, are not built or used often enough to be concidered a vital unit.
If combined together into 1 unit instead of 2, I believe it would be built more often and fit a better niche in mid-late games, M+E costs would have to be adjusted.

#10 Commando = It could use faster Capture strength, so it might be capable of capturing frozen lvl-1 or lower cost LVL-2 units before its freeze shot wears off.

#12 ARM PACKO AA = Unit's Deploy speed is pathetic, and quite often enemy units are already attacking it or have passed over before it starts shooting at planes. Needs its Opening/Closing animations sped up.


Notes :

Fake commanders show up the same as a regular in-game, it has hideinfo and showplayername - the enemy can't just hover over it and find out it's cost .

Mines are easy to kill, like.. force fire on the ground!

Tremor is overpowered because it hits every time, right? (/sarcasm).

Cloaked anti-nukes? Oh god, in a seriously porcy game often the only way to crack the porc is by nuking after taking out the anti nuke.

Want to avoid this? Build mobile anti nuke (Gives 200 E too!)

I don't know about luger/plllager.