I played EE yesterday and I would open a hub and find myself lookign at all the items tryign to figure out which as what i wanted. Then I'd remember they're colour coded then repeat the process to determine what colours where which, then I'd repeat it again to find which one i wanted within those colours matched.
For one I can identify a hub on the map much much better than I can identify a hub in a small build pic which hasnt got much contrast to speak of. I find myself confusing buildpics because they look very similair and the details I tell them apart by are smaller and harder to see.
And I cant determine the units just by looking at them either. Maybe the scout and conbots, but most of the lvl 1 I cant tell apart, and the same with a lot of lvl 2. I just build a big mix of them and send them off into battle nonplussed about what it is I'm sending in.
The problem is that to see a lvl 2 plasma mech as a plasma mech I need to zoom in and look at its armaments. in Earth 2150 it was fine because the plasma guns where move obvious and they stood out a lot more.
I think the problem isnt the models but rather the texturing, and I've noticed improvements by Fang after this release, such as some changes to the hubs to add stripes to make them more defined.
EE version 0.173 Final (no more stuffs)
Moderator: Moderators
earth 2150 had easily distinguished units because 1 you were never zoomed out that far, and 2 you never had more than 20 units at any given time in any given assault group, meaning locating them was damn easy...
But nuff said about that, 1 I do agree I need to redo the buildpics, however the lack of a way currently to setup a custom forced GUI that would allow me to make the pics larger does cause a problem..
I will however consider adding some texture distinction to the units BUT, I dont think that will go anywhere..
But nuff said about that, 1 I do agree I need to redo the buildpics, however the lack of a way currently to setup a custom forced GUI that would allow me to make the pics larger does cause a problem..
I will however consider adding some texture distinction to the units BUT, I dont think that will go anywhere..
Well makign the weapons slightly more obvious would help.
As for buildpics, have you considered taking a totally different route? Trepan has shown 3D build menus showing unit models instead of build pics, it would make for a very nice GUI and would make build menus a heck of a lot clearer, as a hub would be twice the size it is on map rather than a quarter in the build pic, they could appear up the side on the left, and then you can show orders or 3D order buttons in a row along the bottom above the tooltips
As for buildpics, have you considered taking a totally different route? Trepan has shown 3D build menus showing unit models instead of build pics, it would make for a very nice GUI and would make build menus a heck of a lot clearer, as a hub would be twice the size it is on map rather than a quarter in the build pic, they could appear up the side on the left, and then you can show orders or 3D order buttons in a row along the bottom above the tooltips
The selection unitpics widget (but with 3d models).
http://trepan.bzflag.bz/spring/3dselpics.jpg
To be honest, I'd probably prefer iconic buildpics. The swaying
models look neat, but they are not the best for easy recognition.
Note that I've tried to scale the models to fit their scissor boxes.
Some models don't take well to it.
The background colors are being set based on the unit types.
This could be improved. Texture overlay could also be added to
show differing unit properties (ex: background colors for land/sea/
submarine/air/hover, and textured frames for builders/radar/weapon)
Could also blink the background and unit colors, have different
transform animation patterns, etc... You can draw them almost any
way you want.
P.S. Those models are being lit by 2 light sources. The standard
OpenGL material properties can all be modified (ambient, diffuse,
emissive, specular, shininess).
http://trepan.bzflag.bz/spring/3dselpics.jpg
To be honest, I'd probably prefer iconic buildpics. The swaying
models look neat, but they are not the best for easy recognition.
Note that I've tried to scale the models to fit their scissor boxes.
Some models don't take well to it.
The background colors are being set based on the unit types.
This could be improved. Texture overlay could also be added to
show differing unit properties (ex: background colors for land/sea/
submarine/air/hover, and textured frames for builders/radar/weapon)
Could also blink the background and unit colors, have different
transform animation patterns, etc... You can draw them almost any
way you want.
P.S. Those models are being lit by 2 light sources. The standard
OpenGL material properties can all be modified (ambient, diffuse,
emissive, specular, shininess).
Of course they don't, because they know what to look for. I, as a newbie, don't know that and the fact the mod doesn't even try to make it easier for newbies hurts it - and you sound elitist because you seem to approve of that. My point is if you want more players, you need to be noob-friendly, because everyone is a noob at first. Telling people to 'learn2play' (too much WoW forums, please excuse me) will not make them do that. I could go on and on and on... I love to see good, open source games, but you guys that make them sometimes need to stop for a while and think about all the people who _could_ play them but won't because of a small, stupid detail like that.Forboding Angel wrote:Most people that have actually spent a decent amount of time playing EE have absolutely no trouble differentiating the units.
I'm not taking anything personally, I've been participating in Quake community for several years; I've got a really thick skin :> What I'm trying to do is convince you that noobs are worth caring for.
imbaczek, one of the problem that we moders face is the fact that no matter how "noob" friendly we make something... noobs still complain about not knowing what anything does. I have gone a great length to document and detail aspects of my mod and people still do not look at it. EVEN with it being as short as possible.
If E&E had like 40 units per-side.. although I am sure starcraft/DOW/WARCRAFT(all)/age/etc has less... There in lies the problem, TA has a lot of unit sure. However, they are broken down into, kbots, vehicles, aircraft, hovers, ships, buildings. This helps.. so each group has about 10-20 units per type.
EE has factions that are:
Tank/air/ship/building
Kbot/air/ship/building
hover/air/ship/building
Each faction can only have 4 unit types. Lets say I do the color coded stuiff with the turrets for fang(not that I am against it, I think it would be cool) Players still have to actually READ the stuff that tells them what does what... and players NEVER read the documentation. NEVER. One of the key difficulties in EE unit differentiation is that each faction sticks to a theme, something I like personaly.
So you have something like 50-60 tanks/kbots.hovers to learn. This can be daunting. Fang has given each level a different chasis and I have offered to model some extra parts for him and give him some textures for those parts. So we would then have 50-60 tanks/kbots/hovers... with their different chasis and I would make a texture/add on to help represent parts.
However, you are also ignoring the massive effort with the build pictures. They are color coded with icons. I do agrea that it is hard to make out the pictures, I had told forb when I saw them that I would have prefered some contrast/brightness work... but that adds onto an already huge pile of stuff.
Also, lets talk about buildpictures.... I hate TA glamour style buildpictures... they obscure detail and make more information for the eye to read! but players HAVE to have that unecessary rubbish. Don't ask me why but they do. That HURTS unit differentiation. I think plain-jane buildpics with icons would help but then people complain inceasently about plane jane buildpictures.
So at the moment, lets think about where we are... fang is having computer *issues* something to remember as fang is not a computer nerd like me. It may take him a bit to get his machine up. I have already agread to do some add-on parts and textures for him... that should help with the unit differentiation. Trepan is being kind enough to show us features in the LUA gui... these are all things that will help. However, until fang gets his machine up we are at a stand still. so, give him some time.
If E&E had like 40 units per-side.. although I am sure starcraft/DOW/WARCRAFT(all)/age/etc has less... There in lies the problem, TA has a lot of unit sure. However, they are broken down into, kbots, vehicles, aircraft, hovers, ships, buildings. This helps.. so each group has about 10-20 units per type.
EE has factions that are:
Tank/air/ship/building
Kbot/air/ship/building
hover/air/ship/building
Each faction can only have 4 unit types. Lets say I do the color coded stuiff with the turrets for fang(not that I am against it, I think it would be cool) Players still have to actually READ the stuff that tells them what does what... and players NEVER read the documentation. NEVER. One of the key difficulties in EE unit differentiation is that each faction sticks to a theme, something I like personaly.
So you have something like 50-60 tanks/kbots.hovers to learn. This can be daunting. Fang has given each level a different chasis and I have offered to model some extra parts for him and give him some textures for those parts. So we would then have 50-60 tanks/kbots/hovers... with their different chasis and I would make a texture/add on to help represent parts.
However, you are also ignoring the massive effort with the build pictures. They are color coded with icons. I do agrea that it is hard to make out the pictures, I had told forb when I saw them that I would have prefered some contrast/brightness work... but that adds onto an already huge pile of stuff.
Also, lets talk about buildpictures.... I hate TA glamour style buildpictures... they obscure detail and make more information for the eye to read! but players HAVE to have that unecessary rubbish. Don't ask me why but they do. That HURTS unit differentiation. I think plain-jane buildpics with icons would help but then people complain inceasently about plane jane buildpictures.
So at the moment, lets think about where we are... fang is having computer *issues* something to remember as fang is not a computer nerd like me. It may take him a bit to get his machine up. I have already agread to do some add-on parts and textures for him... that should help with the unit differentiation. Trepan is being kind enough to show us features in the LUA gui... these are all things that will help. However, until fang gets his machine up we are at a stand still. so, give him some time.
The problem with the colour coding is that is takes even more space away from a buildpic that's small already, making it harder to see what you're choosing.smoth wrote: Also, lets talk about buildpictures.... I hate TA glamour style buildpictures... they obscure detail and make more information for the eye to read! but players HAVE to have that unecessary rubbish. Don't ask me why but they do. That HURTS unit differentiation. I think plain-jane buildpics with icons would help but then people complain inceasently about plane jane buildpictures.
When you say you don't like TA style shots does that include AA shots as well?
-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Take it to PM
I said nothing inflammatory. I said simply that he kept insulting me, and that I didn't appreciate it, and that I was done with the topic.
I wasn't irritated until I saw that wus of a snip.
Last edited by Forboding Angel on 03 Jan 2007, 01:43, edited 1 time in total.
That is correct. The makers of total annihilation needed a way to glamour up the game. That is why the shots were done like that: http://ton-of-clay.blogspot.com/2006/09 ... tream.htmltombom wrote: When you say you don't like TA style shots does that include AA shots as well?
Short version:
is that it was a way to "sell" the game TA. Origonaly they wanted a blueprint like image. So yeah, it is not as much a functional concept as it is a way of cheesing it up for sales.. back in the day. Read the link for a more in-depth explanation.
Secondly, spring sells it's self.
http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/BB/files/screen504_122.jpg
That stuff can already be used (except for one recently added call that
helps to scale and place the unit models a little better).
The next release of Spring (0.74b3), will likely include LuaUI v0.1, which
allows the user to decide whether they want to use the mod's mod_ui.lua
file. If the mod contains a mod_ui.lua file, then the user is presented with
the following dialog:
Use Mod LuaUI? YES, NO, ALWAYS, NEVER
If the answer is ALWAYS or NEVER, then the user will not be prompted
with the dialog for that mod again. The mods are recognized by their
filenames (not their "human names").
helps to scale and place the unit models a little better).
The next release of Spring (0.74b3), will likely include LuaUI v0.1, which
allows the user to decide whether they want to use the mod's mod_ui.lua
file. If the mod contains a mod_ui.lua file, then the user is presented with
the following dialog:
Use Mod LuaUI? YES, NO, ALWAYS, NEVER
If the answer is ALWAYS or NEVER, then the user will not be prompted
with the dialog for that mod again. The mods are recognized by their
filenames (not their "human names").
Last edited by trepan on 03 Jan 2007, 02:36, edited 1 time in total.
I'd rather it was more a matter of props than colors.
Mortars/artillery: Longer, up-tilting barrels
Missiles: Prominent missile pods
AA missiles: Missile pods with a radar dish or something
Fire: red tanks, for fuel
Plasma: maybe a pulsing barrel/weapon??
Lightening(ni): If the above is possible, than maybe some crackling lightning on the gun
shotgun: Fat, short barrels with shells on the sides
Mortars/artillery: Longer, up-tilting barrels
Missiles: Prominent missile pods
AA missiles: Missile pods with a radar dish or something
Fire: red tanks, for fuel
Plasma: maybe a pulsing barrel/weapon??
Lightening(ni): If the above is possible, than maybe some crackling lightning on the gun
shotgun: Fat, short barrels with shells on the sides
Last edited by Candleman on 03 Jan 2007, 05:25, edited 1 time in total.
Sounds good to me. I worry a bit about being able to distinguish missiles from AA missiles, but otherwise sounds nice.smoth wrote:here is what I am thinking:
Mortars/artillery: Black
Missiles: White
AA missiles: white with prominent red lines
Fire: Red
Plasma: neon Green
Lightening(ni): blue
shotgun: silver reflective
Thoughts?