Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 07 Dec 2006, 10:31

This is why I'm working on it carefully before releasing anything publicly. I have and can design entire games and worlds, a tech tree isn't much in comparison.

Oh, and hovergoliaths remain one of the worst ideas in existance, possibly outclassed only by the hoverorcone.

Someone-else · Post by **Someone-else** » 07 Dec 2006, 13:16

Lvl 2 hovers would be cool. There should be fast, strong and expensive unit like half-stumpy half-goliath on hover, because in ba u cant make effective rush against heavy defence.

And flying karganeth (original one, not aa/ba) is much worse idea than hoverorcone...

imbaczek · Post by **imbaczek** » 07 Dec 2006, 15:49

Another problem: januses will happily shoot even with friendly units in their line of fire. That wouldn't be a huge problem if they didn't one-shot flashes

hunterw · Post by **hunterw** » 07 Dec 2006, 16:51

i like hovers the way they are. sort of a niche vehicle, somewhere between tech 1 and 2 in terms of destructive power. really, they are tech 1.5 level. on the right map, they can easily win the game if you use them early enough and correctly.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 07 Dec 2006, 17:18

Changelog so far:

changelog wrote:V4.2 --> 4.3
Arm Fusions really makes 1000 E now
Core Fusions really makes 1100 E now
Adv Fusions really make 3000 E now
Tremor got less hp now
Fixed Sniper bug
Took Commanderscripts from XTA and made the movement of the "Arms" faster
Targeting facilities cost 1/4 now, more facilities will enhance your accuracy of radar dots
removed arrival sounds
Added some loadscreens, thanks machio.
Reduced hp of scouts hovercraft
Floating metalmakers cost 1 metal now
Reduced Gator maxspeed
Removed the laser off the Destroyer ships
Made the depthcharges no longer tracking
Fatboy costs reduced by 30 %
HLT's DPS increased slightly

Peekaboom · Post by **Peekaboom** » 07 Dec 2006, 17:42

Made the depthcharges no longer tracking

Why? I just said naval balance was pretty good, don't pull a random change like this, as this one in particular is far to substantial. Do you have any comments on the naval balance points I mentioned last page?

If you want to make subs better vs. ships decrease the RANGE of the depthchargers. Realistically this makes more sense (although I suppose DC's don't really track). The huge range of the DC's is a little silly looking as it is.

Balance wise, a destroyer depthcarger will kill a level1 sub in 4 hits and has a range of 400. A level 1 torpedo has a range of 495 and will kill the destoryer in 3 hits. You could reduce the range of the DC to 250-300 and let it kill a sub in 3 hits. The results of this means that subs will be MORE useful against ships provided you micro them to stay out of DC range. The boats are faster than subs so a concentrated effort to take them will work, but the subs range advantage will take out more of them in the process.

Removed the laser off the Destroyer ships

This makes some sense. The cannon has a harder time hitting scouts/corvettes, require more use of your own corvettes to protect the destoryers.

Fatboy costs reduced by 30 %

I guess. I don't use fatboys all that often, but as mentioned they are an incredible support unit. Making a mass of fatboys may not be economical at the moment, but I think their current price is well worth it IN PRACTICE on the field with a mixed army. I'd rather face a line of sumo's than a line of fatboys, which is are almost impossible to overwhelm with lower level units.

Other changes look good. But where is any of the rebalancing of anti-air effectiveness?

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 07 Dec 2006, 17:58

With the lower tremor hp, any chance of them getting a slightly better turn rate and acceleration? because they're pretty annoying to move around.

Also wondering about when anti air changes are coming, because right now lvl2 air is just outclassed by lvl1 anti air completely.
Another thing, the peeper really needs its flare back, it doesn't have to be as good as it used to be just good enough so 2 peepers can at least fly over a single defender, maybe a flare with a reload time of 5 minutes or something.

And can the Janus get its nice arc from 2.23?

Peekaboom · Post by **Peekaboom** » 07 Dec 2006, 18:06

neddiedrow wrote:The Advanced Missile Tower point is, in my opinion, tampering with something that shouldn't be tampered with. To practice the kind of control implied by it you need to space the towers significantly, stagger them in ranks, invest an absurd amount of resources and buildtime and have backup for the fact that you will be waiting forever for them to reload against some of the fastest units in the game. Commonly they will all waste their first shot on the first plane - reducing their effectiveness by an incredible margin. I have never had an issue with them, as a player who often uses air for support, and I'm by no means the cream of the air user crop.

I'm going to be a little cynical here.

"By practicing the kind of control implied by it" do you mean placing 3-5 towers in slightly centralized location and covering almost the entirety of map to through traffic from planes? You don't need to space them out to more than protect a farly extensive base or major flyways.

"They will all waste their first shot on the first plane" - I should add that with their explosision radius and the explosion radius of the planes, anything other than a carefully spread out (formation controlled) air attack will annihilate an entire wing of planes. On smaller maps, landed planes just taking off in a group can be obliterated before they even get flying. ITS REDICULOUS. The missile kills everyplane (but the super planes I think) in a single missile. Even if the splash damage doesn't take out other planes, a few normal missile towers or AA kbots will polish of the rest of the airforce in an instant.

The fact is the adv. missile towers require FAR less resources/control/micro/BS'ing than it does to actually try and use air effectivelly with adv. missile towers present. Reduce the range, reduce the damage/splash, something. That unit is the most irritating thing in the game bar done. I'd rather get shelled to death by birtha spam than have to try and use planes in a game filled with adv. missile towers.

Now I'm venting...

Isn't there enough Anti-Air? I think there are more anti-air units in the game than air units. I'd like to see the adv. towers replaced by an upgraded erradicator/chainsaw moved to level 2.

I DO NOT think that air units should be able to win the game on their own (like in OTA), but with the amount of AA to be had in every configuration using air units as SUPPORT is a modest proposal at best. The only time air ever works is when people don't build any AA at all.

Frankly, level 1 missile towers, flak, and you're own fighter's should be all the AA you ever need for base defense. Having mobile missile units and flak is needed to protect your army on the move from gunships, but that should only be effective on conjunction with your own fighter plane back up.

Day · Post by **Day** » 07 Dec 2006, 18:13

you can take out missiles towers out pretty easily with bombers.. they really arent the END AIR units as people think they are.. if you send in peepers first.. the towers waste their shots.. then comes your airforce.. also properly spaced out ofc taking out vital targets..

"The only time air ever works is when people don't build any AA at all."
build more then 7 brawlers

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 07 Dec 2006, 19:37

I should add that with their explosision radius and the explosion radius of the planes, anything other than a carefully spread out (formation controlled) air attack will annihilate an entire wing of planes.

Wrong, just Wrong. The only time that is ever going to happen is by sending a big ball of brawlies, but who's stupid enough to do that?

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 07 Dec 2006, 19:44

neddiedrow wrote:Oh, and hovergoliaths remain one of the worst ideas in existance, possibly outclassed only by the hoverorcone.

You are forgetting about teleporting krogoths!

Day · Post by **Day** » 07 Dec 2006, 20:02

rattle, please stop that.

If air needs to be changed to drastically as people seem to be preposing gimme some clues? anything instead of just saying.. im expecting this to change, be specific.

IMO current air isnt that bad actually... its the way people use it mainly.. if you can provide replays or arguments that suggest otherwise go for it, im not THAT stubborn =]

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 07 Dec 2006, 20:15

air is just so wrong. nothing short of a bertha should have 2400 range. AAA should be short ranged and very powerful; ie not aircraft in small areas, like important parts of your base, but leaving the rest vunerble and in need of mobile cover like fighters or flak trucks. XTA gets it right, have a look at the way AA works there.

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 07 Dec 2006, 20:27

This isn't XTA..

Just tone down the AA kbots and flak trucks a bit

Acidd_UK · Post by **Acidd_UK** » 07 Dec 2006, 20:33

Amphibious units - please make core's shiva heavy amphib tank have the same sloptolerance as the lighter ones, as it currenty refuses to go into the water on a lot of maps...

Day · Post by **Day** » 07 Dec 2006, 21:01

aa kbots and flak already have been toned down

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 07 Dec 2006, 21:21

gunships just need a little of their old resistance to lvl1 aa missiles again.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 07 Dec 2006, 22:51

+1

and where's the awesome hula girls avatar?

jellyman · Post by **jellyman** » 07 Dec 2006, 23:01

I don't think mercuries/screamers are overpowered personally - I usually go for flak if I build any level 2 anti air. But playing against them can be annoying because of their range. It just doesn't seem right that planes can be shot down in your own territory if your opponent has one on the edge of theirs. Taking screamer fire when you set fighters to patrol your base, or send brawlers to defend against attackers who are in your base seems a bit excessive.

But if I'm attacking a base with bombers, it seems that the one shot from the screamer before the bombing run starts does less damage than the equivelant 3 or 4 shots from 3 flaks (I think thats the rough equivelant cost??) to my bombing attack. Of course a screamer totally shuts down opportunistic raids on what might otherwise be unprotected mexes etc in the side of an enemies base. But then so do a handful of missile towers scattered everywhere. I think the screamer/mercury could have its range reduced to around that of an anhilator, and its ROF buffed a bit to compensate.

If any anti air unit is overpowered - its the missile tower. Build them in a net with say a llt's range between them, and your base will stand up quite well to all but the most serious air attacks.

My least favourite aspect of air is its strong rock paper scissor element. Build air against land only and you win. Build land only against someone who builds too much AA and you have big advantage. Build land and enough AA against someone who invests heavily in air, and you win. Air gets built so rarely that its fairly viable to not build AA. So noobs learn to not build any or very little AA. And then get com pwned by brawlers or fighters and OMD air is so OP. If missile towers could hit air and land, this may go someway to changing this. However having tested this myself against AI, this means that missile towers are seriously overpowered as a land defence, at least compared to llts. So it would probably require a fairly big rebalance of lots of stuff to do, and obviously be a change of a core aspect of AA which would have the hoardes crying NO!!!

And on Day's comment that its not that air is so unbalanced, its the way that people use it; I think this reflects the fact that the current balance makes it very difficult to learn to use air effectively. So whether there is any way to make it a bit easier to learn how to use effectively? Maybe oner aspect is that it is not viable to start with air, because of the air con's slow build. Also it takes a significant investment in nano build power and energy to put out enough air to be effective. What would happen if we buffed air cons nano power, reduced energy/build time cost on air, and/or buffed air factory nano power?

I guess one of the problems with buffing air generally is air's ability to maneuver and concentrate firepower. If air is viable earlier on, then later on it may be the pwn all unit, as it flys over wreckage fields and concentrates so many units into an area that no defence can cope. Unless anti air is changed to rely more on area effect, so that all air units suffer a problem similar to brawlers when built in large swarms.

Maybe its best air is left basically as is in AA. And if enough people want something different, then it should be in a different mod....

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 07 Dec 2006, 23:16

Make LVL-1 Missle towers do the same damage as Samson/Slasher vs ground units and it won't be remarkably overpowered.

As long as its the only AA unit converted to allow for ground attack as well, its really not a bad idea at all.

That leaves the packo and Chainsaws perfectly fine as dedicated AA.

As far as Air power being the unused option, dunno.

When all other attacks fail, Air power always dominates.

You just can't stop a continued assault with bombers, if they can destroy a single unit of value, they've done their job.

Best part about bombers, is typically they drop their weapons at or before the AA can start engaging them. So something will always die, its just a tradeoff.

If you can keep sending in bombers to attack AA defences, there is no way the enemy can keep up by replacing, and building new defences.

Air power almost always wins, or at least its a high average.

Take ALtored Divide, or larger team games for example.

There are always enough people to hold the ground, and there is always room for 1 person to do dedicated Air.

That usually throws the balence to the team that builds LVL-2 air first, or whoever can make a few sucessful bombing runs.

If you can get air in, you can weaken the other enemy, giving your other ground pounding teamates the oportunity to move up and weaken other ground using enemy faster.

Spring RTS Engine

Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!