The reason we should stick with one pure TA mod exclusively

[Doomweaver]

I'm not saying a TA should be the default mod; I assume when we have a mod management system, we will not need a default mod, because you will just download it when the time comes. But for a basic TA mod, what will we have?

[zwzsg]

I'd like to have plain OTA as the base files, XTA as the first mod, installed by default, and in a few month or year, Rhyoss vs TLL vs Rumad becoming the most played. So people used to TA would find the exact same game, the SY still would be forcing people to play XTA, and for balance and perfection we'd use only third party material no one is already used to.

[Doomweaver]

Well can someone actually give me an arguement as to why they think it will work with multiplie mods floating around? Because I cannot see it happening, even though so many people insist it will be just fine.

Maybe, just maybe this will work; We have two Total Annhilation mods. Firstly, OTA. Secondly, a mod that replaces the OTA units with evTA models, so that the game looks different, and also adds other units. For example, this mod could be AA.

The reason that I say this is that, as I have said earlier, most people, especially n00bs, remember things based on their visual content. If two TA mods look different, it might just work. But this means we can only ever have two TA mods; OTA and a supermod. The supermod will have to be very carefully balanced, OTA left as it is.

That's a compromise. C'mon people, how about it? Let's not destroy a very large part (meaning the Total Annihilation part) of what will be a revolution in the online gaming genre.

[SinbadEV]

First of all, Doomsayer is right, there is a good chance that if we just let people do whatever they want, willy nilly... that's gonna turn a lot of people off of the game... also I think that Orriginal TA should be the base mod because otherwise it's not really a 3D version of TA, it's a new game that looks and acts like TA... But I prefer more balance gameplay... I think that we need to balance the OTA+6 that come from cavedog only to the minor degree neccessary to make it work the way it did before in the orriginal version... But I don't think locking out balancing mods is neccessary... A game like XTA works well and people used to OTA can get used to it, same with all the MODS, and you have to put an effort into getting mods at this point so it locks out the newbs for the most part... I think that we should have the option to do anything we want, with defaults being what everyone is used to.

Personally, I think most people will want to have some "default" mods to play online, that they can learn the strategy to and get good at, maybe they could lock the "main" server to only be able to play a small group of approved mods, but let people net host by giving their friends their IP address and staying off the main server... I mean it's open source, but they do have control of their own server...

wow, I'm pretty sure I've just said nothing... cool...

[Gabba]

I think all the problems mentioned above will be solved by having at least a basic mod management system. Also, to encourage people to play the default mod, games with other mods should not appear in the main lobby, but rather in a separate place.

The default mod should:

1/ have fundamentally the same buildtree as OTA (maybe a few fixes, but not as different as XTA) - this is the most important for familiarity, even people who don't really know which units are the most efficient will remember the build tree.

2/ have all the OTA units, since most mods assume that

3/ contain everything from TA Bugfix that is relevant to Spring, and additional fixes needed for units to work perfectly in Spring

4/ be rebalanced for Spring, and also rebalanced to avoid the predominant role of any unit, such as the Flash, and encourage combined arms - what's the point of having so many units if we don't use them. This is a great opportunity to have a balanced basic mod: in TA days, for mainly technical reasons, most people were playing the not-really-balanced and really-buggy basic OTA, which Cavedog of course couldn't update anymore. Most balancing effort happened only in TA Bugfix, and in mods such as Uberhack and XTA.

5/ have the Evolva models - why not? Having that as a default makes the game look better, and so attracts more people. Or that could be the first mod, turned on by default, but you can turn it off if some players have slower computers.

5/ have a few extra units added with time, that add to the game without changing it too much. For example, the little sight camera (Dragon's eye) and the shore-based depthcharge laucher from Uberhack are amazing, and fit perfectly in the game. I also love the Spider Pack, it gives a special touch to Arm - which is needed since the Krogoth is more powerful than ever. Also, we can incorporate some balance changes from XTA, such as better mines.

But more importantly, I think we should all accept to play whatever basic mod comes with the game, even if we don't like it. N00bs are gonna get really confused if they come around and find people arguing what should be played instead of playing. My theory is that you can get used to pretty much anything; if TA had been initially designed as XTA, everybody would now love XTA and ask for it to be the default mod. So, calm down people, and be ready to sacrifice your personal preferences for the good of TA Spring - at least for now.

[10053r]

This poll is pointless. Any attempt to make Spring conform to one mod will simply cause the project to fork, because people WILL want to mod.

So what we have to do is make it easy to mod, and easy to tell what mod you are playing. The place to do this is the lobby. Make a column in the lobby that says what mod is being used. Then make each game comply with whatever the server is hosting. This will at least solve some of the confusion.

As to what mod will win, package them all with the next version. Leave whatever SY wants as default, as I think they have that right as project leaders. Eventually, the players will choose a mod they like best, and it will kill all the other ones. It will probably also be the best one. I just hope it is AA, because dispite any flame wars that happen over the relative merits of mod authors, I think that AA is the best when judged on its own merit.

[Tangaroa]

I think it would be somewhat wise to pick two third party races and retexture (to remove all content from TA) and balance them to lessen the chances of there being big copyright issues.

In other words, abandon Arm and Core entirely and move on to say, TLL and Rhyoss, or Rumad, or any other high quality third party race. (as in, not garbage made by all those newbies who thought it would be cool to make a third party race for TA)

[Buggi]

I think we should create a poll to see if this poll is pointless.

w0oo!

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think we will argue to a point when somebody makes a total remake of OTA by himself and will thus force us all to accept his doing as the default.

Really, if we need a mod, why don't we make one ourselves? Like I said, no current TA mod has what is required of a Spring mod, TA needs major rebalancing to keep within its original balance, however odd it may sound.

[Doomweaver]

you know I made a poll about a week ago about making a new TA balance mod specifically for Spring, and everyone said stuff it. Should we try that again?

[Dakar]

The best thing would probably be to make sure people are AWARE of the mod differences before they can play.

For (a bad) example, perhaps you could not play a mod until you read a document listed the changes from OTA/XTA.

Also, there should be a well designed mod-switcher.

[smokingwreckage]

I hate to say it, but many of you idiots don't listen. My opinion is that XTA is good, not that it should be the default mod. Anyone who voted 'no' because they hate XTA are dickheads, or else need to read posts properly.

Anyone who votes no also needs to give another alternative, because if you want to keepall all those rebalances of the ota units AND not have people trying out TASpring just decide it is crap, then you can't just say 'it will just work' because it won't. If you disagree with me that's good, but only if you have actually given thought to the issue and not just ignored it.

Forgive my language but it was necessary to express what i'm feeling right now.

A well implemented mod switcher should fix the problem. I like AA. I also don't mind some of the big stupid every-damn-unit packs. I'm bored as hell with straight TA, it was and is an awesome game but I've been playing it for a VERY LONG TIME.

Now, with a mod switcher, and mod notification plainly displayed in the join game or battleroom interfaces, AND given that you need to download and install any given mod and can therefore be reasonably expected to know that it IS DIFFERENT from your default XTA/OTA/whatever, I think this becomes a non-issue.

The idea of putting together a pack with ONLY third-party units is a very good one however.

[mongus]

what does "conform to" in this context mean?

[Doomweaver]

Basically, they can add on all the units they like, but have to leave the original units with their stats in-tact, so you don't get confused between TA mods, but rather have some familiarity.

[BlackLiger]

Id go for OTA normally, but I think we should use a slightly modified form of OTA, after all, can OTA handle the high and low trajectory differences?

[Dakar]

Basically, they can add on all the units they like, but have to leave the original units with their stats in-tact, so you don't get confused between TA mods, but rather have some familiarity.

Two problems:

1. If the primary mod people end up choosing is unbalanced, all of the modders are stuck. They can't rebalance the origional game, which would provide a basis for their mods.

2. I prefer XTA, others like OTA, some enjoy both. Should one group lose out just because a few people don't know the difference?

It's kind of like killing a bug by throwing a grenade at it. The minor problem is solved (people getting somewhat confused), but a major problem is created (people unable to play their preferred mod).

If anything, we should make sure people know about the differences between mods.

[Doomweaver]

I see your point.

[mongus]

hmmmm....

I can see only one interesting thing about this...

It seems... if the commander for .... xTA .. and the commander for... OTA...
are different units.... they will not overwrite each other....
so... having a mod installed would not disable another one...
just join and voila, if you have the mod, then you can play...

but not sure if this is doable...
or the starting unit allways has to be lets say comm00.. and not comm10...
anyhow.. i think the guys doing the client will sort this out much much better.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Wait, wait, wait. We are talking here of the _default_ unit pack, that should come with Spring. Presuming we make a decent mod manager that will help avoid clutter, we could use any mod as the default. It would actually be the best solution to choose a mod unrelated to TA - I don't know, Axis&Allies, TAWD, a compiled pack of Rumad and Rhyoss, or whatever. Maybe even make a clean distributive. The point here is that all other mods will also be available for download, already in compatible format - OTA, XTA, AA, SWTA, TAFF, anything! The result would be no problems whatever for multiplayer, easy mod switching, and no confusion whatsoever for new players. If they want TA, they will download the OTA pack, if they want something else, they will try something else. Nice and easy.