Highpoly "discussion", formerly known as MC0003

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 29 Oct 2006, 06:51

On soldiers tube arms are justified, those clothes don't adjust to the shape of your body but six sided boxes are silly, yes.

OP: Sure you're counting triangles? Six sided limbs usually cause larger polygon numbers than that.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 29 Oct 2006, 13:56

no i counted polys (317). But that should be not more than 600 tris. I never used round parts (if you forget the noise) and a quad is made out of 2 tris. Also the helmet is made of quads and tris, so i think 600 is the tri count.

LOrDo · Post by **LOrDo** » 29 Oct 2006, 20:33

P3374H wrote:
LOrDo wrote:Low poly humans look unrealistic and ugly, no matter how much skill you have.

Owned.

And HOW many polys does that have?

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 29 Oct 2006, 20:35

1k iirc.

LOrDo · Post by **LOrDo** » 29 Oct 2006, 20:35

Thanks for making yourself look like an idiot.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 29 Oct 2006, 20:54

Oh, I think he made his point effectively. 1k is comparatively low-poly, though to be sure, that isn't in the parameters of this competition... this is an extremely low-poly competition by some modern standards.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 29 Oct 2006, 21:55

P3374H wrote:1k iirc.

the author himself said

You're right, those characters are between 1,000 - 2,000 polys apiece

I think they are more like 2 k than 1 k.

LOrDo · Post by **LOrDo** » 29 Oct 2006, 22:30

Caydrs models are like 1500 polys. And everybody was bitching about them being uber high poly. I sure dont consider 1k to be low poly. Those humans Snipa made? Less then 300 polys? I consider that low poly.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 29 Oct 2006, 22:37

Caydr's TA models have unnecessary polygons.

Shogoll · Post by **Shogoll** » 30 Oct 2006, 06:13

Honestly for me, 1k is ridicoulously low poly. Not surprisingly, since I usually model for FPSs, were some guns can be up to 40k polies a piece.

Wolf-In-Exile · Post by **Wolf-In-Exile** » 30 Oct 2006, 09:58

While I agree 1k is regarded as very low poly by today's standards, you can't really compare FPS models with RTS models.

Shogoll · Post by **Shogoll** » 30 Oct 2006, 11:25

You can compare current gen FPSs with next gen RTSs though :D

Supreme Commander's Experimental units have up to 40k polygons at maximum detail.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 30 Oct 2006, 12:48

For spring I would consider less then 500 low poly, less then 1000 average, and more then 1000 high poly, but that's simply because the amount of units being rendered on average will FAR surpass that of an FPS, which are what those models are designed for. For an FPS < 2000 tri is low poly.

Shogoll: no they don't. Most supcom units are under 1000 polies, including most of the experimentals. However, sup comm does use normal maps, which make the low poly units look much better then they would look in spring.

[edit2] shogoll: There is no FPS currently released that uses 40000 polygon models. UT2007 models are about 5000 poly, and that represents the high spot. HL2 character models are generally below 4000 poly, guns below 2000, and mapping models somewhere in between.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 30 Oct 2006, 12:52

Speaking of polygons, upping the polycount doesn't hurt so much when using unit limits Yeha put in. So models up to 2-3k should be okish if harsh build limits are kept.

Shogoll · Post by **Shogoll** » 30 Oct 2006, 13:35

SwiftSpear wrote:For spring I would consider less then 500 low poly, less then 1000 average, and more then 1000 high poly, but that's simply because the amount of units being rendered on average will FAR surpass that of an FPS, which are what those models are designed for. For an FPS < 2000 tri is low poly.

Shogoll: no they don't. Most supcom units are under 1000 polies, including most of the experimentals. However, sup comm does use normal maps, which make the low poly units look much better then they would look in spring.

[edit2] shogoll: There is no FPS currently released that uses 40000 polygon models. UT2007 models are about 5000 poly, and that represents the high spot. HL2 character models are generally below 4000 poly, guns below 2000, and mapping models somewhere in between.

Were talking in custom models here. UT2007 scenes are typically 500k-1.5 million polygons. (Sorry, old source seems to be incorrect.) However, they generate their normal maps off 6-8 million poly models, which is were massive amount of details come from. The actual models that are rendered are around 3-12k polys. I don't know were the hell you got the idea they are 5k.

HL2s models are up to 9000 for characters, though some custom character models reach up to 18k polygons. Or like in CDG.net, many MANY custom guns there reach into 10k polygons or more.

http://www.cdg.net/forums/viewtopic.php ... hlight=diy
This model is 30k polygons. I have heard of up to 60+k polygon weapon models, but I have not seen them.

http://www.gameplaymonthly.com/games/ut2k7/1.jpg
Just look at those models. Those models ARE NOT 5k polys.

http://www.gameplaymonthly.com/games/ut2k7/4.jpg

Neither are these.

Holleee crap!

UT2007's normal mapping shader system makes Half Life 2's look freaking pathetic. The level of detail the Normal Maps can project onto a 12k poly model is FREAKING amazing. Who the hell needs polys when you have those types of normal maps!

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 30 Oct 2006, 16:14

That gun example is a poor poor poor example.. did you even read, do you know why that is 30k polys.. that is a configurable gun, the GUY modeled every possible attachment for that model onto it so people could configure it how they wanted.. thad be like packing 5 guns worth of polys into one gun.

Im not sure what you people are even discussing anymore. Lets get one thing straight.. WE know for a fact that spring cannot support 5k poly tanks, in the hoards that tanks currently show up in mods, yes if we drop the number of tanks down to say 2 per person maybe wed be good, but 100 5k Peewees charging around is going to lag something.. we all know that..

Another thing we all know is that OPTIMIZING your model IS ALWAYS good. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS OPTIMIZE. reducing poly count is always a good thing if IT does not detract from the model...

So what does this mean, spring doesnt support UT2k7 12-5k poly normal mapped awesomeness.. I dont care.. IF that was the level of detail we had to shoot for to look "average" in spring.. HOW many of use could actually mod for the damn game.. How many of you can sit there and MOD for a game using 12 million poly normal maps... I dont know about you people but if somone said HEY make a 12 million poly version of one of your MODS units. I think I would spend the rest of the day contemplating suicide. I for one would have NO idea where to start. Not to mention it would probably look like crap.

These High poly counts make games look awesome visually, however they have 2 side effects I dislike, one they increase the amount of time/money it takes to make a game, this stifles creativity, because if you have to spend X time and X dollars you need X profit and as those increase your less likely to take risks, and innovation is risk. The other problem they cause is they raise the bar for modding, the higher visual quality of the base game, the more hours and effort and more professional software is needed by said modders to mod said game. Essentially modding becomes more and more elite until only people about to go into a game design career can afford to mod, and since they are about to get payed to make games, why bother.. I think this increasingly high tech setup will eventually obsolete modding on a mass scale, but thats me..

Anywho that aside, Spring cannot handle Massive poly counts, Since most of the competitions here were set up for making a unit that could feasibly be put in spring, and most people are concerned with modding for spring. It seems quite reasonable that no one wants to spend the time it takes to make a rather High poly model for a competition that is not going to be used for anything..

Shogoll · Post by **Shogoll** » 31 Oct 2006, 16:36

Yeah I understand the gun example is a bad one, but there are very many other guns that happen to have 15k+ polygons. I cannot how ever, seem to find them.

Anyways, is Spring's polycount limit an engine limit? Or is it a Graphic Card Capability limit?

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 31 Oct 2006, 16:47

both...

Shogoll · Post by **Shogoll** » 31 Oct 2006, 22:57

No I mean for a single model.

Because in Dungeon Siege (1) a modder was able to put in a 100k polygon humanoid model into the game and have it run. It just lagged really bad and it would only load up into a 1x1 map.

Now Dungeon Siege 1 is a very antiquitated engine. But if you can upgrade the graphical capabilities like that (similar to Half Life 1's High Definition pack) than you would be able to run the game with 5000 5k poly models if you had a powerful enough graphic card, like say a Geforce 8800.

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 31 Oct 2006, 23:23

Starcrap

256 Colours
Renderpicturespixeled into a Sollution so low, that i don`t remember it.
Most famous for its balance.

Warcraft 3
How many Polys per Unit? How small is the Unitlimit ?

World of Warcraft ?
>> Intro shows, they could have done better, but they didn`t. Why?

Good Design beats overmodeled Chars.
And low Requirements (which most of the Guys out there have - not everbody has to work with 3Ds Max & Maya all the Time) -> lead direct to a greater Audience. That is however no Excuse for not trying your best within your borders.

Spring RTS Engine

Highpoly "discussion", formerly known as MC0003