Highpoly "discussion", formerly known as MC0003

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 23 Oct 2006, 16:25

OptimusPrime wrote:I thought more about something that is so nice, that you can take it as background and therefore you need some more tris (10k or more). Just make a 1280*960 shot of the mechs and you will see what i mean

The initial reason of these competitions is to get people to produce GPL models free to use for anyone in Spring mods or else. It's about doing the best in given limit, not what can be done.

Yeah think it'd be best if you started a high poly competition instead and keep that stuff out of here. :)

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 23 Oct 2006, 16:35

Optimus... skins are the model. When you see what I start with, you'll probably think it's going to suck. When you see it with a skin, you will hardly recognize it. Which is exactly what I have been telling people about this topic for years now. Modeling for games is not about screenshots or pretty posters. It's about delivering maximum eye-candy for the minimum price. It requires technical mastery.

That's really all I have to say about that. You really, really, really gotta learn those skills, or you're never going to get anywhere... cuz guess what... the same skills that go into skinning also very much apply to making good normal maps, and even competitions are very rarely about the mesh without a skin

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 23 Oct 2006, 16:36

Sure you can make 8k poly models for your practice (and keep in mind that when anyboddy is counting polygons they mean triangles because anything else only ocurs outside of realtime graphics and then the count is only for boasting) but then I wouldn't go for segmented models, either. After all, an 8k poly model isnt going into Spring and thus can use the features of more modern engines like skeletal animation and normalmaps.

If you want modeling competitions for modern engines go to Polycount or CG Chat (eww). This forum is only for Spring and a compo for non-Spring models makes no sense.

In an RTS you don't use that many polygons. You are insane if you allocate more than maybe 2k for the biggest units since Spring doesn't support LODs. A good artist can make a texture that simulates so much detail noone will be able to tell at a gameplay zoom level that it's all painted on. Just because this competition does not use textures doesn't mean we shouldn't make models under the assumption that later they will sport textures. These models are meant for game use.

And I think a good artist could make a model that looks very close to that highpoly car at 600 polies by utilizing alpha planes.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 23 Oct 2006, 16:43

you are right, but this competition is about models and just the model, so no textures. Also as long as we dont have bumpmapping, the details of the models will never look realistic (if you zoom).
The other point is, that even the best texture artist cant make a model better than its 3d design. Its like with make up - an ugly human will stay an ugly human even with the best make up and clothes.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 23 Oct 2006, 16:57

Well I don't mind textured shots, but they don't count. It's not a prerequisite.

Optimus...
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... 343#126343
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... 105#128105

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 23 Oct 2006, 17:00

@Optimus: That is so much crap. A good skinner can make a BOX into a believable CRATE. A really good skinner can turn that into a CRATE that feels like has been sitting outside a bit too long, has sustained some water damage to the lower parts, and is being bleached out by the sun. The skin is THE THING that makes a model shine. As I said- I will show the raw tris, then the skinned tris, and it will transform the model into something that's alive.

And dude, it's not supposed to look realistic at ZOOM. That's yet more crap. We don't play games at ZOOM, we play them ZOOMED OUT. So that we can see what's going on. Quit focusing on things that aren't even slightly relevant to making good GAME MODELS, and you will improve

@Rattle: Thanks for proving my point. Those Mon Calamari pwn, despite having a model that is low-poly to the point of starvation

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 23 Oct 2006, 17:26

Argh if you would be right, all the games are evoluting into a wrong direction. ALL games have more and more polygons and will ever increase their poly sizes. Sure, textures are also very important, but even with a ut2007 skin, an ut 2004 model wouldnt look that great.
Textures are only 50% of a good model and even if you could show me a very nice low poly model, i will tell you, that with high polygons, it would look much better.
But i think this discussion will be endless - you are right that textures can make very much, but i think i m right when i say, even the best texture would look much better with a better model.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 23 Oct 2006, 18:54

Optimus Prime wrote:you are right, but this competition is about models and just the model, so no textures. Also as long as we dont have bumpmapping, the details of the models will never look realistic (if you zoom).

Yes but you're not supposed to zoom that far in during the game. And if you think bumpmaps are necessary for a texture to be good you have NEVER seen a competent artist.

The other point is, that even the best texture artist cant make a model better than its 3d design. Its like with make up - an ugly human will stay an ugly human even with the best make up and clothes.

However, a bad model is one that's badly constructed, not a low detail one. A great texture artist can make the Quake 1 guy look better than 99% of the units in any Spring mod, no matter what their polygon count.

Take for example this or this. Both are within the polygon limit of this competition.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 23 Oct 2006, 20:32

and now compare your 2 examples

with this pic

sorry, but if you dont see a different in detail and poly count, you need a better monitor and/or some glasses

imbaczek · Post by **imbaczek** » 23 Oct 2006, 20:43

This looks great, but, excuse me, so what?

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 23 Oct 2006, 21:02

For one thing, lessee.....ITS AN EFFING FPS. END OF STORY. GTFO. KTHXBI.

There's about as many polygons in that screenie (if it even is a screenie, it's probably a promo pic) as during a large attack in spring.

Wolf-In-Exile · Post by **Wolf-In-Exile** » 23 Oct 2006, 21:09

Optimus Prime, I hate to say this but your comparison is like comparing a Ferrari with a die-cast toy.

Besides, Unreal Tournament 2007 DOES NOT USE HIGH POLY INGAME MODELS.

Look! A LOW POLY MODEL! Impossible!

IN GAME MODEL: 5287 POLYGONS!

NORMAL MAP MODEL: 2 F***ING MILLION POLYGONS!

I'm getting pretty sick of people making statements about things they don't really understand, and that goes for all those "Polycounts does not matter" crowd.

If it didn't matter, they wouldn't be using tricks like normal mapping now would they? After all, why not use the 2 million poly model!?

.... you know what? I don't care anymore, think what you like. I'm sure as hell not going to waste my time nor effort on people who do not want help nor correct advice.

Yeah polycounts don't matter, anyone who says otherwise is wrong and complete n00bs.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 23 Oct 2006, 21:21

...even if you are right:
Could you PLEASE do this elsewhere?!

Optimus, I said it before, also everyone else:
a) Thumbnail your stuff.
b) Get your own thread or do this via PM.
c) This is a model competition.
10q

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 23 Oct 2006, 21:23

you are right rattle, i m sorry.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 23 Oct 2006, 21:26

I think this thread is derailed enough to be renamed and a new compo thread started. After all we don't even have any entries yet so we can just as well kill it and start a new one.

Even at the same polygon numbers your models wouldn't look like that Gears of War shot because Spring doesn't support that lighting or the normalmaps.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 23 Oct 2006, 22:31

Done. You may continue to argue over polygons now, I don't mind.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 23 Oct 2006, 22:36

POLIES TAKE VIDEO CARD POWER TO APPLY DYNAMIC LIGHTING, TEXTURE SWAPPING, AND MORE OBJECTS! THE MORE OBJECTS YOU HAVE, THE MORE IT LAGS, TOO! RTS GAMES ARE MEANT TO BE OPTIMISED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!!!!

Edit: Cooling off now......

knorke · Post by **knorke** » 23 Oct 2006, 22:49

So, lets say you have modeld your three million superspacemarine.
Who is going to make a smooth, natural looking script for it?
Oh wait - we can just use the peewee animation, it fits everyone!
Point is, a innovative unitdesign and a fitting animation is much more important for an RTS, imo.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 23 Oct 2006, 23:05

sure, but where is the relation between high poly models and animations or textures? Is there a rule, which says that a good model must have bad animations and bad textures? NO!
So the only break for high poly models is the performance and we live far after the time of quake1 or doom2 - so we can have models with at least 2-5 k polys in a normal mod. If not - spring will die after sup comm is out (which sure can handle that).
Its the same with your meal, if it looks ugly, you wont try it.
Therefore i was a bit irritated of a competition which forces designers, to design models which are not much better than OTA units while we can have at least Dawn Of War units.

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 23 Oct 2006, 23:10

Optimus Prime wrote:sure, but where is the relation between high poly models and animations or textures? Is there a rule, which says that a good model must have bad animations and bad textures? NO!

what exactly is the point of that....

Optimus Prime wrote:So the only break for high poly models is the performance and we live far after the time of quake1 or doom2 - so we can have models with at least 2-5 k polys in a normal mod.

...uh huh. You getting sync errors? You're definitely in a different reality.

Spring RTS Engine

Highpoly "discussion", formerly known as MC0003