Forgotten Chronicles - Mod in Developement
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Snipawolf wrote:1000%?
Pfff, I am competing with Company of Heroes graphics, no no, not that, Supreme Commander's graphics... If I zoom in, I wanna see some cool stuff goin' on.. Do you have the air tubes? No. Do you have a chest that doesn't cut off? No.
However, you have merely decreased it by 500 tri's which isn't a big deal. Rectangles are much more practical, and I think s3o shouldn't automatically do it, seems like a waste..
Seriously, rectangles are EVERYWHERE on all of my models.. 1 rectangle triangulated is 2 tri's, a dumb move..
What the hell is supposed to be going on anyways? Why would tri's be better if rectangles can be used so much more!
Edit: IF rattle is right, could someone explain what the hell triangles are for then? And a few more things.. Like why s3o's are changed to tri's anyway..
Sorry. That was incredibly rude of me.
Snipa, the answer as to "why does Spring use triangles instead of rectangles" is actually pretty complicated, and not as simple as it seems.
Spring actually has an optimised tristripping routine that handles objects with all quads (that's what we call 3D rectangles) very efficiently. It gets used for any model format, but only ones that are 100% done with quads.
If you mix quads and tris, then every quad is broken into a tri when Spring reads the mesh into memory the first time- so, for various reasons, it's better to break it up before runtime, because the results might not be what you want (again, that gets into some complex stuff, like shader performance and other things)- or use all quads. Those are your choices. Using a quad in Wings, in a model that also uses tris... means you must tesselate it, or Spring will do it for you... and you may not like what it does.
Next... polycount, and how it matters.
Basically, it really depends on the mod. If you're going to have 30-40 soldiers running around onscreen all the time, then you need to keep the polycount under 1500, for reasonable performance on a modern machine.
If the number of soldiers onscreen is going to be lower, then the polycount can go up quite a bit, without resulting in slower FPS. I should think that 2500 polygon units will still perform quite well in Spring, assuming that they have small texturemaps (really, 512 is as large as you want to go) and you aren't spamming out hundreds of them.
Like anything else, speed and beauty are a tradeoff. Many games make use of a fixed camera angle, even if they're 3D, in order to keep polycount lower. Many games only allow very limited zoom levels. Spring allows for neither- it has one of the most freeform UIs of any RTS available. This means that you'll need to keep your polycounts reasonable, and use good game design to make things work out.
It really depends, in the end, on what kind've game you make. If you want a game with thousands of units, and you want them to be visible at huge distances, keep the polycount down as low as possible. If I were making, say, a Shogun-like game, I'd try to keep polycount under 500 tris- which is really not very hard, and can actually look pretty good, if your skins are executed well. For a game like Dawn of War, where a typical "big fight" has far fewer fighters involved, you could go to about 2000 or so without any real problems. For a game like Fallout: Tactics, you could go to 4000 or so, because then you're talking about very few characters on-screen at once. Spring is not really designed for a game like F:T, but it's a good example of how having very few characters on-screen means you can up the polycount without causing problems.
Last notes: don't talk about how "good" something looks until you've viewed it from the distances typical during a game- if a man-sized character is about 32 pixels on a side, then you're looking at it at about the resolution most players will see it. And also remember that if you want rounded edges, then use six sides or more on your cylinders, and Spring will automatically make them look somewhat rounded. It's not perfect by any means, but it's better than wasting tris on little teeny guys.
Also, I noted that both of you are wasting faces modeling stuff as fully 3D, when you could very likely get away with using faces that are just projected out've the model, and cut into it- or losing the backfaces for little details because nobody is going to see "through" them unless they are zoomed in at incredible levels anyhow... which might matter for screenshots, but it sure won't matter at any other time! Always look for opportunities to cheat and remove faces when they won't matter. And don't bother modeling stuff like thumbs... that's a complete waste, when you'll never see them from a typical height. Same goes for the undersides of faces, necks, etc.- either use a triangle of quads, or a square of quads... if that... because people will see them very rarely. With necks, a triangle of quads that is nearly-black, for guys like these that are wearing helmets, will still look great, convey the sense of shadow, and be low-poly to boot.
Spring actually has an optimised tristripping routine that handles objects with all quads (that's what we call 3D rectangles) very efficiently. It gets used for any model format, but only ones that are 100% done with quads.
If you mix quads and tris, then every quad is broken into a tri when Spring reads the mesh into memory the first time- so, for various reasons, it's better to break it up before runtime, because the results might not be what you want (again, that gets into some complex stuff, like shader performance and other things)- or use all quads. Those are your choices. Using a quad in Wings, in a model that also uses tris... means you must tesselate it, or Spring will do it for you... and you may not like what it does.
Next... polycount, and how it matters.
Basically, it really depends on the mod. If you're going to have 30-40 soldiers running around onscreen all the time, then you need to keep the polycount under 1500, for reasonable performance on a modern machine.
If the number of soldiers onscreen is going to be lower, then the polycount can go up quite a bit, without resulting in slower FPS. I should think that 2500 polygon units will still perform quite well in Spring, assuming that they have small texturemaps (really, 512 is as large as you want to go) and you aren't spamming out hundreds of them.
Like anything else, speed and beauty are a tradeoff. Many games make use of a fixed camera angle, even if they're 3D, in order to keep polycount lower. Many games only allow very limited zoom levels. Spring allows for neither- it has one of the most freeform UIs of any RTS available. This means that you'll need to keep your polycounts reasonable, and use good game design to make things work out.
It really depends, in the end, on what kind've game you make. If you want a game with thousands of units, and you want them to be visible at huge distances, keep the polycount down as low as possible. If I were making, say, a Shogun-like game, I'd try to keep polycount under 500 tris- which is really not very hard, and can actually look pretty good, if your skins are executed well. For a game like Dawn of War, where a typical "big fight" has far fewer fighters involved, you could go to about 2000 or so without any real problems. For a game like Fallout: Tactics, you could go to 4000 or so, because then you're talking about very few characters on-screen at once. Spring is not really designed for a game like F:T, but it's a good example of how having very few characters on-screen means you can up the polycount without causing problems.
Last notes: don't talk about how "good" something looks until you've viewed it from the distances typical during a game- if a man-sized character is about 32 pixels on a side, then you're looking at it at about the resolution most players will see it. And also remember that if you want rounded edges, then use six sides or more on your cylinders, and Spring will automatically make them look somewhat rounded. It's not perfect by any means, but it's better than wasting tris on little teeny guys.
Also, I noted that both of you are wasting faces modeling stuff as fully 3D, when you could very likely get away with using faces that are just projected out've the model, and cut into it- or losing the backfaces for little details because nobody is going to see "through" them unless they are zoomed in at incredible levels anyhow... which might matter for screenshots, but it sure won't matter at any other time! Always look for opportunities to cheat and remove faces when they won't matter. And don't bother modeling stuff like thumbs... that's a complete waste, when you'll never see them from a typical height. Same goes for the undersides of faces, necks, etc.- either use a triangle of quads, or a square of quads... if that... because people will see them very rarely. With necks, a triangle of quads that is nearly-black, for guys like these that are wearing helmets, will still look great, convey the sense of shadow, and be low-poly to boot.
I see, I am making a pretty good texture right now.. And I have an extreme secret when I make this guy in game.. The only person that can see this surprise is Chrispin.. And when he "sees" it, I will probably make a video...
No questions asked, and thanks for the explanation Argh, I am sure you didn't need to make it that long.
Edit: I am keeping my "normal" (Well, they can't be called that, they are biologically, genetically, and bionically enhanced) infantry at maybe ~500, I'll try, and it shouldn't be too hard. These guys may rush..
The model of the unit you see may have about 10 in game per person at once, they are the elite of the elite, will take a pretty long time to train, and are probably the dominating force of the second level. They are going to be like, big running tanks on two legs..
Edit2: Don't worry about me, I know what quads and plenty of other words are.. I did my research like Smoth suggested
edit3: It's also good to see you check this topic.. I edit a lot, too.. Hehe
edit4: New avatar, made by myself lol..
Edit5: I swear, you sure as hell can hold a lot on 11 pages of a memo pad..
I carry one around in my pocket, and almost all of today I was scribbling and writing, units, statistics, all sorts of stuff..
And, veterancy will be a seriously badass thing to get.. A veteran group of 5, may be able to take down a group of 15, unaided.. A medic may be needed afterwards though..
Unit shall be classified by the type of weapon they use, or their class.
These are the units I will make, texture, and put ingame first, so I and Chrispin can play balance and see which weapons don't fit.
Thompson (Assault kinda guys, armed with tommys and grenades)
H.M.G. (Heavy Machine Gun, armed with a pistol, veterancy gives a machine pistol, told you it was badass...)
Rifleman (Uses a Garand, and grenades)
Rocket Launcher (Duhhhh.. Anti-Armor Infantry, and Anti-Air? Plus a pistol, which becomes a machine pistol after veterancy)
Scout (Increased sight range, uses the Machine Pistol, like an S.M.G. and has grenades, maybe I should give him a rifle..)
Medic (Heals troops at 15 hp/tick, armed with a thompson)
Sniper (Armed with a machine pistol, Sniper, and with a blazing range of 2000..)
Lieutenant (Armed with a tommy, and group enhancing powers of 10% speed and accuracy)
Major (Same as above.. Kinda.. A lot better though, by 2.5X and a reload speed increase of 10%)
Shotgun Troop (Armed with a combat shotgun, this guy will do away with anything that comes too close)
All of these guys, if they have 30% health, have a 50% movement speed decrease, and if 10% or lower, have the inability to move or fight..
And, the only "armor" I will put in this little test version (still need a commander, urrrhghh!) is teh buggy..
No questions asked, and thanks for the explanation Argh, I am sure you didn't need to make it that long.
Edit: I am keeping my "normal" (Well, they can't be called that, they are biologically, genetically, and bionically enhanced) infantry at maybe ~500, I'll try, and it shouldn't be too hard. These guys may rush..
The model of the unit you see may have about 10 in game per person at once, they are the elite of the elite, will take a pretty long time to train, and are probably the dominating force of the second level. They are going to be like, big running tanks on two legs..
Edit2: Don't worry about me, I know what quads and plenty of other words are.. I did my research like Smoth suggested
edit3: It's also good to see you check this topic.. I edit a lot, too.. Hehe
edit4: New avatar, made by myself lol..
Edit5: I swear, you sure as hell can hold a lot on 11 pages of a memo pad..
I carry one around in my pocket, and almost all of today I was scribbling and writing, units, statistics, all sorts of stuff..
And, veterancy will be a seriously badass thing to get.. A veteran group of 5, may be able to take down a group of 15, unaided.. A medic may be needed afterwards though..
Unit shall be classified by the type of weapon they use, or their class.
These are the units I will make, texture, and put ingame first, so I and Chrispin can play balance and see which weapons don't fit.
Thompson (Assault kinda guys, armed with tommys and grenades)
H.M.G. (Heavy Machine Gun, armed with a pistol, veterancy gives a machine pistol, told you it was badass...)
Rifleman (Uses a Garand, and grenades)
Rocket Launcher (Duhhhh.. Anti-Armor Infantry, and Anti-Air? Plus a pistol, which becomes a machine pistol after veterancy)
Scout (Increased sight range, uses the Machine Pistol, like an S.M.G. and has grenades, maybe I should give him a rifle..)
Medic (Heals troops at 15 hp/tick, armed with a thompson)
Sniper (Armed with a machine pistol, Sniper, and with a blazing range of 2000..)
Lieutenant (Armed with a tommy, and group enhancing powers of 10% speed and accuracy)
Major (Same as above.. Kinda.. A lot better though, by 2.5X and a reload speed increase of 10%)
Shotgun Troop (Armed with a combat shotgun, this guy will do away with anything that comes too close)
All of these guys, if they have 30% health, have a 50% movement speed decrease, and if 10% or lower, have the inability to move or fight..
And, the only "armor" I will put in this little test version (still need a commander, urrrhghh!) is teh buggy..
If I get one in game, I can have like 10 more along side him.. I told you, I was remodelling, now I am texturing..
Expect it finished in a week or so, I am making a 1024 size "Infantry Set" of textures... Just started on the helmets..
edit: Seee, I got some helmets done Thompsons and riflemen will use the first one (Read from top left to bottom right.. K?) Lieutenant is the second one, medic is the third one, Heavy Machine Gun is the fourth one, next row, major is fifth, scout is the green scope eye (Signifies: Noobiness :)), sniper is the seventh, and rocket launcher is the last.
Expect it finished in a week or so, I am making a 1024 size "Infantry Set" of textures... Just started on the helmets..
edit: Seee, I got some helmets done
Thompsons and riflemen will use the first one (Read from top left to bottom right.. K?) Lieutenant is the second one, medic is the third one, Heavy Machine Gun is the fourth one, next row, major is fifth, scout is the green scope eye (Signifies: Noobiness :)), sniper is the seventh, and rocket launcher is the last.-
Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
-
Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Got teh buggy textured.. I dub it the Mongoose (Ya know, since mongooses are fast and hunt "snakes"...)
And, by the way, I ground another 32 faces off.. From 700 to 300 to 268...
I know, wheel texture sucks >.>
Edit: Yeah, forgot some stats... Fires a Heavy Machine gun, .70 cal or so if ya would care to be precise..
The vent on top of the M-gun is for releasing smoke.. Guns get hot..
Mongoose - The Armored Vehicle wielding a HMG..
And, by the way, I ground another 32 faces off.. From 700 to 300 to 268...
I know, wheel texture sucks >.>
Edit: Yeah, forgot some stats... Fires a Heavy Machine gun, .70 cal or so if ya would care to be precise..
The vent on top of the M-gun is for releasing smoke.. Guns get hot..
Mongoose - The Armored Vehicle wielding a HMG..
Last edited by Snipawolf on 27 Oct 2006, 04:42, edited 1 time in total.
Uh okay. I do it the other way around, spend an hour or two on the uvmap and then make a texture. I suck at texturing though.
Here's a really bad example and it's not really optimized except using most space available... the black lines are just the UV map outlines, forgot to hide the layer before saving it.
Here's a really bad example and it's not really optimized except using most space available... the black lines are just the UV map outlines, forgot to hide the layer before saving it.
