Spring RTS Engine

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 04 Oct 2006, 15:30

BigSteve wrote:Just nerf their hp slightly, having well placed missile towers / crashers stops an early zipper rush. Nerfing their hp will make them a little easier to deal with which seems to be what everyone wants.
Theyre raiding bots, they should stay that way. if you move them to level2 what can you raid with at level1 ? nothing, the other bots are waaay to slow, raiding is a part of the early game and players should be rewarded for good micro.

Ok, firstly they are still own at l2.
l1 raiders are infantry kbots. they are used for an early push. the early push is just that, an attempt to force the opponent to play defensively. it shouldnt be difficult to counter, it should just reward players by knocked out a few mex's and forcing them to build some llts. I have seen many many games where the zipper kills everything and then outranges and kills the comm. ive seen you do it bigsteve. against a lest skilled player its armageddon, which is maybe one of the many reasons noobs hate XTA. Raiding kbots shouldnt have the power to remove you from the game in the first 10 minutes. zippers do, unless as agorm said, your early BO is defensive, the only possible way of countering them. its the thing I hate most about xta. just my oppinion.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 04 Oct 2006, 19:20

Well I strongly disagree, I played a game last night where I handled zippers attacking me early game just fine. Its not rocket science,
a nice spread of crashers covering my base and everything was fine,
I still managed to expand up the map so its not like the zipper rush forced me to play defensively as you say.
I simply expected it, built the counter and continued, just like if you see air you build something to counter it.

However Foe did had a point that on small maps they are a bit OP which I agree with, but I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion tbh.
a small hp nerf would solve some of the problems on small maps imo

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 04 Oct 2006, 19:33

Sorry, I forgot to add a bit.

I did lose a few mexes and a solar or something to the zippers, so I didnt survive unscathed, but I dont think its that much of a problem, a small hp nerf should balance things.
They can only last so long if you have a few crashers sneakily placed to cover all anfles in your base.

jellyman · Post by **jellyman** » 04 Oct 2006, 23:32

It might be easy for experts to counter zippers. But I remember one of my early experiences in XTA. It was small divide one on one and the other player doing zipper rushes. My first game I didn't have any defence whatsoever when the first one came (I was a spring Newb as well as XTA newb). So I tried a few more games. I thought well maybe 3 or 4 peewees should be able to hold off an early zipper. Nope. Try some missile towers. Better, but not good enough. Try llts. Solid defence early but my expansion was slow and I got pasted by a horde of 10 or so zippers. Vehicle start - dead again. Ok time to give up in disgust - at least for the night I mean, not necessarily forever.

A combination of that bad experience and the rarity of online games available means I have only tried to play once or twice since then....

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 04 Oct 2006, 23:42

BigSteve wrote:Well I strongly disagree, I played a game last night where I handled zippers attacking me early game just fine. Its not rocket science,
a nice spread of crashers covering my base and everything was fine,
I still managed to expand up the map so its not like the zipper rush forced me to play defensively as you say.

This is true - for the top 5% or 10% of players. Make things a little easier for the newbs, and long term we'll get more and better games, even if we have to nerf a unit that is not a problem for pros.

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 04 Oct 2006, 23:50

Big Steve.... thats the problem... what If I don't want to have to spam crashers jsut to take on a zipper? Why the hell should I be restricted to just that stratagie? Its crazy?!?! It being one of several viable strats is fine, but being the only one is pants.

aGorm

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 05 Oct 2006, 00:21

Crashers arent the only counter, you can use your own zippers too, or some missile towers, which are just fixed crashers I suppose, or some llts (admittedly an expensive option).

Anyway I never said it was perfectly balanced, I did suggest an hp nerf which is does need really they are a little strong.

I just dont want to see it get nerfed into oblivion thats all agorm ^^

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 05 Oct 2006, 02:43

you dont need to spam crashers. 4 max will beat a single zipper (most common) rush, and with good micro and/or commander backup will beat 2-3. I disagree entirely that they are better on small maps. On smaller maps their speed is less of a factor so their advantage over peewee/ak rush is greatly reduced. Peewees= better dps and harder to take out, the disadvantage being that they take longer to get to the enemy than a single zipper. This is not the case on smaller maps.

The only time i find zippers to be a significant problem is team games where they get by and rape 3 or so economies because none of you have any interceptors (spose gunships are the only thing that could intercept a zipper).

The reason i prefer XTA over other mods is precisely what some people seem to be complaining about: it can be well and truly over in teh first 3 minutes. Xta is and should be more rush oriented than AA, zippers are a part of this that i would certainly miss if they were nerfed into oblivion.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 05 Oct 2006, 02:52

4 max will beat a single zipper (most common) rush,

ah kk
so wasting time and extra metal on crashers leaves you better off than the rusher? he takes. the initiative. he also by doing so robs you of time to react and of course the time it takes to MAKE those crashers. And he also has more metal (not sure bout the energy, but the metal is what counts almost all the way through!). He also gets scouting info on what you are doign (being a f**king idiot) and can react (steal the entire map and never attack you again) and win easily. Oh yeah brilliant counter mate. Almost as good as the 'he's building MT forests, lets send in units one by one and then let him suck up the metal! it will....lure him...off his guard...hmmmmmmmmmm'

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 05 Oct 2006, 04:20

minemat you dont play xta. Go troll some other thread. Crashers are not solely defensive units they have these things called LEGS. Oh look my crashers out range every other land unit. Gee-farking-wizz they are the best supporting firepower at tech 1! I wouldnt mind a rational objection to what i said, but you clearly havent read the thread, or played much XTA (in a while at least) Early crashers are also the best protection against gunship rush and comnapping. If i plan to com push and acquire as much of the map as i can early game, then crashers are my unit of choice; a squad of those following com (who provides radar for them and heals, building llt and mex along the way) are hard to counter.
Just to clarify for people who like to leap into a thread about a game they dont play and insult the intellegence of people trying to have a constructive debate, the person building zippers has forced me to do nothing, they have wasted valuable early micro controlling a unit that is very often inneffective and "scouted" my start position (oh noes he can tell i have 2 mex a solar and a lab, how can i compete with his psuedo-esp grip on this battle, where even IS he!?). But then you would know that minemat, having owned us all so many times this week.

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 05 Oct 2006, 10:24

Ummm... But I dont wanna neff the zipper at all. In any way. Didn't you read? I said leave the zip[per as it is. Its just a few other units need to be fixed so that they dont get pointlessly taken out when they realy should not.

aGorm

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 05 Oct 2006, 19:00

I was mainly referring to the other posts agorm, the ones that suggested nerfing range, speed, taking the unit out completely, or moving it to level 2 etc.
Anyway Ive said what I think and its up to MYG and Gizmo to decide what to do and Im sure they'll make a good decision. I still play xta whatever happens tbh.
Anyway, I cba arguing anymore, big deal you have to build some crashers or missile towers to protect your base early game, not every unit has to counter zippers y'know, you have 2 options already, 3 if you count l1 gunships, 4 if you count llts.
I suppose, you'll be complaining about being forced to build aa to counter air next ^^

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 05 Oct 2006, 20:26

I missed one, 5 if you count your own zippers! ^^

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 05 Oct 2006, 20:52

BigSteve wrote: I cba arguing anymore

+1

beta anytime soon knoxxers?

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 05 Oct 2006, 21:40

OK, sure, Not everything should be able to be a good conter, but there should be a vehical that can counter them. Else you can't start with vheiclas... Atleast give me that?

aGorm

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 05 Oct 2006, 21:48

minemat you dont play xta. Go troll some other thread. Crashers are not solely defensive units they have these things called LEGS. Oh look my crashers out range every other land unit. Gee-farking-wizz they are the best supporting firepower at tech 1! I wouldnt mind a rational objection to what i said, but you clearly havent read the thread, or played much XTA (in a while at least) Early crashers are also the best protection against gunship rush and comnapping. If i plan to com push and acquire as much of the map as i can early game, then crashers are my unit of choice; a squad of those following com (who provides radar for them and heals, building llt and mex along the way) are hard to counter.
Just to clarify for people who like to leap into a thread about a game they dont play and insult the intellegence of people trying to have a constructive debate, the person building zippers has forced me to do nothing, they have wasted valuable early micro controlling a unit that is very often inneffective and "scouted" my start position (oh noes he can tell i have 2 mex a solar and a lab, how can i compete with his psuedo-esp grip on this battle, where even IS he!?). But then you would know that minemat, having owned us all so many times this week.

so now you suggest a counterattack with crashers O.o Gunship rush...dont make me laugh that is the very REASON why you scout. Compushing also is not always a smart idea with crashers...you are probably leaving your base v poorly defended and the second that plant goes down.
I dont play it but i used to and it hasn't changed a bit so f**k you. And theres a freaking thing about how you coutner ARGUMENTS not by INSULTING AUTHORS.
But to clarify you are STILL a noob, nothing in the world will change that. I may even have a chance against you and i haven't played spring in a while let alone XTA.
VALUABLE EARLY MICRO? WTH
Early game you have a MASSIVE excess of micro time which you dont use to your advantage if you are just defending!

and "scouted" my start position (oh noes he can tell i have 2 mex a solar and a lab, how can i compete with his psuedo-esp grip on this battle, where even IS he!?)

erm
1: If you com push your intentions will be clear
2: He will know if you have went Air, and utterly pwn you if you do
3: He will know if you have gone Vech / Kbot
4: He will now what you are using for energy and whether it would be a good idea to go for your energy
5: He knows your intentions, whether you want to porc or to expand
6: He can pick on any unprotected cons and run hell raising harassment
7: He will be able to see if you intend on com pushing
8: He will disrupt your play and take command of the battle
Very often inneffective...sure
Oh and you know what i said earlier about not insulting authors (you noob!) it still stands
Rationilisedly argue that biatch

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 05 Oct 2006, 21:52

aGorm wrote:OK, sure, Not everything should be able to be a good conter, but there should be a vehical that can counter them. Else you can't start with vheiclas... Atleast give me that?

aGorm

Well you certainly have a point, I rarely go vehicles because crashers are so effective so im not entirely sure
I can remember using sampsons to fend of zippers but they werent great, and a bit expensive if I remember rightly.

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 05 Oct 2006, 23:21

@Min3, stop trying to make the xta thread end up like the AA ones. KTHXBI.

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 06 Oct 2006, 00:24

1) ok newcastle brown hold nothing conpaired to E.S.B,
2)Samsons carry an anti brawler bonus, always have done, and vehicles have there uses!
3)Pintle n min3mat, ur turning a respectfull forum into a bitch pitch.Grow up shake hands or sort it out on the battle field. (In which case send me the replay)

****___Development___****

Tommo is friday and i may well have the day off work. Ive got quite a bit of work to do.mostly just putting in effects tags n radar blips. (which is a real payne by hand) I should be ready to send out a beta to our kind testers say about....monday?? (Things just keep getting in the way of this for me, im sorrey, just dont prod me with a tree in a battle room ok!

Also ive done a rather cool xta_v8 logo for the start up screens.(of which im putting up tips on as suggested) BUT there may be consernes as to the funky font i have used.if the testers dont like it ill put a poll up here with a sneak pic coz personally i think it rox

Enlightened One has got some filter he is `metalicizing` the font for me as a veriation that we may revert to.
AND [knox]P3374H has resized the commies and decoy commies for us, BIG thanks to him for that. That should keep [WARC]NoiZe happy

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 06 Oct 2006, 00:25

Go me. I might even remodel it, and a few others (the sniper, with its beautiful fragmentedness), if I ever stop being lazy/whatever the fark I am lately.