Absolute Annihilation 2.11
Moderator: Moderators
lol, when testing aa 2.2 i first thought its a bug in latest spring svn which i wanted to report. but apparently you removed terrain deformation on purpose 
i not very happy with that decision - i'd vote for smaller craters, but disabling this feature at all? *switches back to 2.11*
edit: and what happened to wreckages? seems unit and projectile travel through most of them (or is this a spring bug)?
i not very happy with that decision - i'd vote for smaller craters, but disabling this feature at all? *switches back to 2.11*
edit: and what happened to wreckages? seems unit and projectile travel through most of them (or is this a spring bug)?
I really hope that its not a bug, and that wreckages don't block weapons ect....
Nothing is more annoying than trying to maneuver a unit into a firing spot only to miss and hit a wreck instead...
IMO, wrecks are low enough to the ground for most units that they shouldn't effect shots nearly as much or as often as they do..
I think it should depend on the units, and not just be a global thing...
This game is getting very refined indeed if these are the kind of issues that are being fixed.
I've been pretty quiet about the whole Impulse/deformation issues mentioned in the changelog, but there are some things that really will be hurt from this change.
The Goliath is the first one that comes to mind, as the main reason it is as powerfull against smaller units as it is, is almost specifically because of its impulse and deformation ability of its shots.
It will lose alot of damage potential and its medium range swarm buster ability once this change is set.
Merls, Fatboy's, Annihilators (BLOD in general), high explosives (mines/crawling bombs) will also suffer once set. I mention these over some units because these are slow firing/slow deilvery systems that benefit the most from impulse and deformations.
I won't deny that there are some very wrong uses for impulse and deformation, without a doubt there are some really exploitable things you can do.
I'm speaking from a match style of play, not your average PUB game where all sorts of this crap occurs.
The players that do play in a competetive form, do not often have the chance or the time to try this cheap crap.
There will always be exceptions of course, I won't name names because these people already know who they are.
Since AA is pretty much "the only" spring mod, you gotta think about the players that play this seriously, and not take so much stock in what the average pub player wants changed because he had 1 bad experience.
Nothing is more annoying than trying to maneuver a unit into a firing spot only to miss and hit a wreck instead...
IMO, wrecks are low enough to the ground for most units that they shouldn't effect shots nearly as much or as often as they do..
I think it should depend on the units, and not just be a global thing...
This game is getting very refined indeed if these are the kind of issues that are being fixed.
I've been pretty quiet about the whole Impulse/deformation issues mentioned in the changelog, but there are some things that really will be hurt from this change.
The Goliath is the first one that comes to mind, as the main reason it is as powerfull against smaller units as it is, is almost specifically because of its impulse and deformation ability of its shots.
It will lose alot of damage potential and its medium range swarm buster ability once this change is set.
Merls, Fatboy's, Annihilators (BLOD in general), high explosives (mines/crawling bombs) will also suffer once set. I mention these over some units because these are slow firing/slow deilvery systems that benefit the most from impulse and deformations.
I won't deny that there are some very wrong uses for impulse and deformation, without a doubt there are some really exploitable things you can do.
I'm speaking from a match style of play, not your average PUB game where all sorts of this crap occurs.
The players that do play in a competetive form, do not often have the chance or the time to try this cheap crap.
There will always be exceptions of course, I won't name names because these people already know who they are.
Since AA is pretty much "the only" spring mod, you gotta think about the players that play this seriously, and not take so much stock in what the average pub player wants changed because he had 1 bad experience.
The decreased impulse will be an adjustment, sure, but not a bad thing in the end.
When I see things like goliaths being used as a one-man-army - and it happens a LOT - I don't see this as a good thing. No single unit should be the king of the hill. Assault tanks have become the be-all-end-all of this game, and that's just not how it's supposed to be. Don't treat me like a heretic because I'm remembering the greatest RTS of all time
Heavy units should be strong, sure, and they have their niche. They are for heavy assault, breaking through things that lesser units can't get close to, like heavy defensive lines. But in that, they should not be alone.
I've seen games hailed as being EXCELLENT examples of great players, where one player eventually just sets a rally point for his advanced vehicle factory. The rally point is the enemy base. The production is goliaths, and the outcome - unless his opponent is doing the same thing - is always victory.
Yes, they are weak to air. But what else? Tell me one unit of lesser cost that can even approach a goliath with the hope of surviving until it has fired twice. There just aren't any. The goliath will blow anything that approaches it literally off the map.
Impulse, cratering, special effects, these all have their place, but not as a core part of the game. It's not easy to imagine, since this is how it's been since the very first versions.
An attack consisting solely of goliaths should be a game-ending move: for the person that built them, not the person fighting them.
The most basic principle that I've tried to stick to has always been:
"For every form of attack, there is a countermeasure. For every countermeasure, there is a defense. For every defense, there is an offense. No unit can become useless." and so on. I'm not talking about R-P-S, I'm talking about logic. Level 1 is virtually useless once the game has hit level 2. You are a fool to try to defend against heavy tanks with peewees or something. One solid hit and the entire group will go into unit bouncing hell and be destroyed or flung to the far reaches of the map.
That's not how it's supposed to be. Yes, some units having impulse is not detrimental to gameplay. In fact, that might be their main strength. But all units? Hardly. Level 1 is supposed to be useful at all times, if only as a defense against other level 1, or as spotters, or whatever.
This will not be an easy adjustment, but it is a necessary one. AA 2.11, despite being the best version so far, is completely broken.
When I see things like goliaths being used as a one-man-army - and it happens a LOT - I don't see this as a good thing. No single unit should be the king of the hill. Assault tanks have become the be-all-end-all of this game, and that's just not how it's supposed to be. Don't treat me like a heretic because I'm remembering the greatest RTS of all time
Heavy units should be strong, sure, and they have their niche. They are for heavy assault, breaking through things that lesser units can't get close to, like heavy defensive lines. But in that, they should not be alone.
I've seen games hailed as being EXCELLENT examples of great players, where one player eventually just sets a rally point for his advanced vehicle factory. The rally point is the enemy base. The production is goliaths, and the outcome - unless his opponent is doing the same thing - is always victory.
Yes, they are weak to air. But what else? Tell me one unit of lesser cost that can even approach a goliath with the hope of surviving until it has fired twice. There just aren't any. The goliath will blow anything that approaches it literally off the map.
Impulse, cratering, special effects, these all have their place, but not as a core part of the game. It's not easy to imagine, since this is how it's been since the very first versions.
An attack consisting solely of goliaths should be a game-ending move: for the person that built them, not the person fighting them.
The most basic principle that I've tried to stick to has always been:
"For every form of attack, there is a countermeasure. For every countermeasure, there is a defense. For every defense, there is an offense. No unit can become useless." and so on. I'm not talking about R-P-S, I'm talking about logic. Level 1 is virtually useless once the game has hit level 2. You are a fool to try to defend against heavy tanks with peewees or something. One solid hit and the entire group will go into unit bouncing hell and be destroyed or flung to the far reaches of the map.
That's not how it's supposed to be. Yes, some units having impulse is not detrimental to gameplay. In fact, that might be their main strength. But all units? Hardly. Level 1 is supposed to be useful at all times, if only as a defense against other level 1, or as spotters, or whatever.
This will not be an easy adjustment, but it is a necessary one. AA 2.11, despite being the best version so far, is completely broken.
I agree, T2 defences should be nerfed, imho. Most of the time when it gets in middle/late T2 and both players have adequate AA, walls of annis+vipers, and possibly redundant antinukes, it becomes WWI. To both sides it's exceedindgly expensive to assault the other, so both put most of their resources in defence and fusion spam, hoping that they will later be able to crush the ennemy with a superior economy. The definition of porcing.
This doesn't happen only in speedmetal and chokepoint maps, it happens quite often in CC with experienced players too, if it's a team game and it lasts long enough.
By the way, do the spy kbots have rubber soles? It would be un-ninja to blunder around stomping things and setting off every seisminc detector in the area
.
Also, the new units rock
This doesn't happen only in speedmetal and chokepoint maps, it happens quite often in CC with experienced players too, if it's a team game and it lasts long enough.
By the way, do the spy kbots have rubber soles? It would be un-ninja to blunder around stomping things and setting off every seisminc detector in the area
. Also, the new units rock
T1 can be used throughout the game..
lines of annies and fusion spam? You've been playing the wrong people!
And to deal with a golly - D-Gun, Bladewings + pretty much anything, Stilleto, Gunships, well microed lvl 1 units (Gollies have a very slow turret turn rate, which can be used to your advantage) - your own heavy tanks, snipers, a couple of mavs, a sumo, crawling bombs, emp spiders + pretty much anything.. the list goes on..
Single Goaliath won't do anything, not vs experience player. I haven't lost game yet because of few goalias. Countering them isn't that hard. You can either use air (blades are nice) and even swarm of instigators/flashes will kill them. Once you kill them you get their metal. With metal you can either spam more lvl 1 units or build lvl 2 factory. On Comet Catcher (which is typical vehicle map) I usually get lvl 2 later then opponent and there is no real tragedy in it. Sending goalies in line into enemy defense isn't exactly a wised option aswell.
Making lvl 2 units weaker will make game ending even longer, more porcing and boring. Also good players will go after lvl 2 even more rarerly (watch 1v1 with top players on each side, usually you have lvl 1 unit spamming at least for first 20min and after it you have lvl 1 & lvl 2 combo spamming).
Making lvl 2 vehicle weaker will cause that vehicle will be less used (and most of people already go bot on most maps).
Thus I believe lvl 2 units are ok, however lvl 2 defence could get a slight nerf.
Making lvl 2 units weaker will make game ending even longer, more porcing and boring. Also good players will go after lvl 2 even more rarerly (watch 1v1 with top players on each side, usually you have lvl 1 unit spamming at least for first 20min and after it you have lvl 1 & lvl 2 combo spamming).
Making lvl 2 vehicle weaker will cause that vehicle will be less used (and most of people already go bot on most maps).
Thus I believe lvl 2 units are ok, however lvl 2 defence could get a slight nerf.
Quanto's 2 Cents
The gollie as much as i hate it, and core. (been an arm player for 8 years)
I have to say that nerfing the gollie could be a grave mistake as for the fact that the Gollie was designed from the start to be an unequalled base killer. The BEST tank. And as everyone has also said, it has some grave weaknesses, which make it finely balanced as is. Changing the gollie in any way would simply harm the quality of the mod.
On top of that, anyone who gets owned by a straight line of them obviously needs to rethink their strategy.
The gollie as much as i hate it, and core. (been an arm player for 8 years)
I have to say that nerfing the gollie could be a grave mistake as for the fact that the Gollie was designed from the start to be an unequalled base killer. The BEST tank. And as everyone has also said, it has some grave weaknesses, which make it finely balanced as is. Changing the gollie in any way would simply harm the quality of the mod.
On top of that, anyone who gets owned by a straight line of them obviously needs to rethink their strategy.
ohh, maybe it had something to do with having .nocost on then?If by "5 or so seconds" you mean "8 minutes and 40 seconds", that's an accurate statement Wink
i was worried that it could capture things instantly :p[/quote]
Last edited by Cabbage on 03 Oct 2006, 18:19, edited 1 time in total.