Proper Aircraft Behavior
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"fire at Will" does not mean "disregard order and stop to shoot anythign you will.
Fire at will should mean two things.
1: while moving, fire at any taregts of opportunity on the way, DO NOT STOP AND ENGAGE,
2: Engage and kill targets when idliing or patrolling.
Hwoever on point 2, it could be agrued that units should not move too far from their stationed post/patrol route without disengaging and returning.
What really happens though is that if you play units somewhere and enemeys repeatedl├â┬©y attack or pass by, the units will stray further and further way from where you placed and, and will not return, even after the target(s) are dead.
Fire at will should mean two things.
1: while moving, fire at any taregts of opportunity on the way, DO NOT STOP AND ENGAGE,
2: Engage and kill targets when idliing or patrolling.
Hwoever on point 2, it could be agrued that units should not move too far from their stationed post/patrol route without disengaging and returning.
What really happens though is that if you play units somewhere and enemeys repeatedl├â┬©y attack or pass by, the units will stray further and further way from where you placed and, and will not return, even after the target(s) are dead.
thats cause they never orientate themselves ever. hence one of the issues with gundam. u could manuever behind a mech and then shoot it in the back and the target would sit there & take it rather than face its attacker.KDR_11k wrote:Ground units with fixed weapons don't behave like that either.
thankfully thats been addressed next version.
This behavior is set by hold position/manuever/roam already.HawkMan wrote: Hwoever on point 2, it could be agrued that units should not move too far from their stationed post/patrol route without disengaging and returning.
Patrol is a command that you set when you want units to guard an area. Move is a command that you set when you want your units to move to the area, and perhaps do something else next (like move to another point or attack a specific target). Units should never deviate from their queued path if move orders are used, whereas with patrol orders, this behavior is both acceptable and expected.
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BlackLiger
- Posts: 1371
- Joined: 05 Oct 2004, 21:58
Frankly: If you want a way that makes sense:
Bombers on HOLD FIRE doesn't work, cause frankly, once they've completed their assigned run, I want my bombers to find anything nearby and blow it up.
Therefore, it needs to depend what unit is selected what the orders do. For bombers, Fire at will should equal : GO through standing orders, then go do my own thing ONCE MY ORDER QUEUE is empty. This should be the case even on roam.
For turreted ground vehicles it should be : Move to location. While en route, if an enemy is spotted, open fire on him IF on hold position. If on Manouver, instead, try to take as much time going round the enemy as possible without going too far off course to reach objective location. If on roam, engage and destroy target, then resume original order.
Bombers on HOLD FIRE doesn't work, cause frankly, once they've completed their assigned run, I want my bombers to find anything nearby and blow it up.
Therefore, it needs to depend what unit is selected what the orders do. For bombers, Fire at will should equal : GO through standing orders, then go do my own thing ONCE MY ORDER QUEUE is empty. This should be the case even on roam.
For turreted ground vehicles it should be : Move to location. While en route, if an enemy is spotted, open fire on him IF on hold position. If on Manouver, instead, try to take as much time going round the enemy as possible without going too far off course to reach objective location. If on roam, engage and destroy target, then resume original order.
I agree with LordMatt, etc.
Air craft, etc, should follow their assigned orders until they are all completed, and then they should revert to their "default" behaviour (manoever, fire at will, etc). When there are *specific* orders, I expect the units to follow those orders *first*. If I have told my bombers to attack a specific target, I want them to attack that target, not drop their payload on the first pewee they happen to fly over, unless I have specified something like "attack-move" (attack any targets of opportunity on the way to primary target).
Saying "all you need to do is toggle 'hold fire'" is, I agree, at best a WORKAROUND, and increases the micro and cognitive load of game play unnecessarily (there are much better things to spend micro time on), and "hold fire" doesn't do it justice, coz if I tell my bombers to attack a structure in the nme base but don't give them move orders back, I expect them to attack random targets or whatever "default orders" I give them, until I tell them specifically to do something else.
Air craft, etc, should follow their assigned orders until they are all completed, and then they should revert to their "default" behaviour (manoever, fire at will, etc). When there are *specific* orders, I expect the units to follow those orders *first*. If I have told my bombers to attack a specific target, I want them to attack that target, not drop their payload on the first pewee they happen to fly over, unless I have specified something like "attack-move" (attack any targets of opportunity on the way to primary target).
Saying "all you need to do is toggle 'hold fire'" is, I agree, at best a WORKAROUND, and increases the micro and cognitive load of game play unnecessarily (there are much better things to spend micro time on), and "hold fire" doesn't do it justice, coz if I tell my bombers to attack a structure in the nme base but don't give them move orders back, I expect them to attack random targets or whatever "default orders" I give them, until I tell them specifically to do something else.
I'm speechless...If I say anything more I'm asking for the banstick.No, the AIs are working as should be expected. What should be added is a new fire control mode that allows units to fire only when they have no other orders. "Fire at will" should translate "to blow the crap out of anything that is in the units path".
agreed. mehere fails.LordMatt wrote:I'm speechless...If I say anything more I'm asking for the banstick.No, the AIs are working as should be expected. What should be added is a new fire control mode that allows units to fire only when they have no other orders. "Fire at will" should translate "to blow the crap out of anything that is in the units path".
Yes it should be happening, infact, it should happen ALWAYS, so long as the aircraft is on manuver/roam and fire-at-will. Thats the behavior that would logically result from those standing orders. If you don't want them to do it, you change their standing orders, if you don't want ANY to do it, you change the standing orders of the factory. Aircraft should automatically engage just like every other unit. Hold/return/fire-at-will and Holdground/manuver/roam work fine and is NOT a work around.ILMTitan wrote:Hmm, It seams that AirCAI gives Attack commands to planes that are moving. I don't think this should be happening. I'll look into cleaning this up.
Meh, move commands should be superior to fire orders.
if a group is set to fire at will and you tell it to move somewhere through a series of waypoints. what shoudl happen is that the units move through the waypoints, do NOT stop to engage, except for firign while movign by. and then goes into fire at will whent hey arrive.
That is how it shoudl work, that is how it worked in TA, that is how it works in every other RTS game out there.
if a group is set to fire at will and you tell it to move somewhere through a series of waypoints. what shoudl happen is that the units move through the waypoints, do NOT stop to engage, except for firign while movign by. and then goes into fire at will whent hey arrive.
That is how it shoudl work, that is how it worked in TA, that is how it works in every other RTS game out there.
No, if you want your planes to stop their movement to engage an enemy use the fight order, not move.Das Bruce wrote:Yes it should be happening, infact, it should happen ALWAYS, so long as the aircraft is on manuver/roam and fire-at-will. Thats the behavior that would logically result from those standing orders. If you don't want them to do it, you change their standing orders, if you don't want ANY to do it, you change the standing orders of the factory. Aircraft should automatically engage just like every other unit. Hold/return/fire-at-will and Holdground/manuver/roam work fine and is NOT a work around.ILMTitan wrote:Hmm, It seams that AirCAI gives Attack commands to planes that are moving. I don't think this should be happening. I'll look into cleaning this up.
A plane with a move order should shoot at targets that are in its range (e.g. bomber flies over a building, bomber drops bombs) but not deviate from its path.
I have to disagree with you, Bruce.
One does not go out of one's way and ignore queue to get shot up by random crap along the way. It makes absolutely no sense. My orders are my orders, and the AI should prioritize them as such. A bomber stopping to engage a lone turret while en route is simply stupid, especially now that fuel is going to be implemented for aircraft in certain mods. I mean, my land units don't do that... why would my air units?
The standing orders are passive orders, not active orders. They should not, thus, override active orders such as "Move to X" and "Area Attack Y"... Roaming/Manouver be damned, the order of operations is not applicative, and thus logically is not correct.
Applicative resolution of commands leads to logical use.
One does not go out of one's way and ignore queue to get shot up by random crap along the way. It makes absolutely no sense. My orders are my orders, and the AI should prioritize them as such. A bomber stopping to engage a lone turret while en route is simply stupid, especially now that fuel is going to be implemented for aircraft in certain mods. I mean, my land units don't do that... why would my air units?
The standing orders are passive orders, not active orders. They should not, thus, override active orders such as "Move to X" and "Area Attack Y"... Roaming/Manouver be damned, the order of operations is not applicative, and thus logically is not correct.
Applicative resolution of commands leads to logical use.
Perhaps clarification is in order.
-Roam + direct order should result in the plane shooting as it passes but not moving further than its manuver leash away from the order vector.
-Manuver/hold position + direct order should result in the plane shooting as it passes but not turning.
-Roam + patrol should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees on its patrol and returning
-Manuver + patrol should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees but not moving further away from the patrol path than the manuver leash.
-Hold position + patrol should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees but not deviating from the patrol path.
-Roam + no order should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees then returning to its orriginal position.
-Manuver + no order should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees but not moving out of its manuver leash.
-Hold position + no order would result in the aircraft not moving at all without orders.
All of those are with fire at will enabled, otherwise the aircraft should either only do those when fired upon or not at all if hold fire is selected.
Sorry for any confusion.
-Roam + direct order should result in the plane shooting as it passes but not moving further than its manuver leash away from the order vector.
-Manuver/hold position + direct order should result in the plane shooting as it passes but not turning.
-Roam + patrol should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees on its patrol and returning
-Manuver + patrol should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees but not moving further away from the patrol path than the manuver leash.
-Hold position + patrol should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees but not deviating from the patrol path.
-Roam + no order should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees then returning to its orriginal position.
-Manuver + no order should result in the aircraft engaging anything it sees but not moving out of its manuver leash.
-Hold position + no order would result in the aircraft not moving at all without orders.
All of those are with fire at will enabled, otherwise the aircraft should either only do those when fired upon or not at all if hold fire is selected.
Sorry for any confusion.
