The people who have left..

[Forboding Angel]

AF was anything but nice.
I also had the feeling that he thinks he can also outvalue some of the existing Spring dev. Team members.
Did you also regonize, that he did not support the current lobby system? He doesn't have real own ideas, he just recreates and "tries" to improve. - In a bad way.
and crappy code is the result.

Ehh? He wrote an entire lobby by himself, that was looking really nice. If he ever finishes it, I can guarantee that I will switch in a heartbeat.

That said, why would he support the current lobby? Not sure if you missed the memo or not but the current lobby is far from optimal. Combined with betalords "Better than thou" attitude and unwillingness to accept help or suggestions, the poor state of the current lobby is betalord's own fault.

Inferno, considering that you were one (if not THE one) of the ppl involved with dedicated server trials, you should know this already.

All in all, yours is a pretty poor statement of character.

[jcnossen]

Then why is it only the people who haven't actually worked with AF who have positive opinions?

[Neddie]

If he's instantly just remembered as "that jerk" rather than for his very real contributions, regardless of their form, he won't be of a mind to help.

I hate to see anyone leave who can potentially help improve our project. His behaviour and his coding were imperfect, but we are all imperfect. He will improve with time, as we all do.

Whether or not his behaviour did not mesh with those he worked with, as Caydr has said, AF's contributions have been significant and quite real.

I really don't see how anybody here can justify preventing him from contributing, particularly in patch form, on the basis of how difficult it is to work with him. My rationale is this; the Spring community is one of the most elitist, offensive and unstable I have ever encountered on the internet. Quite frankly, I can't list any groups not organized elsewhere that can work well together beyond eight members in number - and most of those groups have come together from TAU or due to a common issue - the most common of which being mutual dissatisfaction with the Spring community. Anyway, the community is literally made part and parcel of people who the super-majority of which cannot work easily with others - and I haven't seen very much focused upon this issue or upon those members save AF, and possibly Emmanuel or Smoth (Which is sad in itself because I would count Smoth among the twenty most cooperative members of Spring).

[PicassoCT]

How to avoid it?
Make an Unmoderated Exile Thread of the Forum, were only those "driven" into Opposition are allowed to post?
The Proplem in my Eyes is, that first of all RealLife, Players and Characters of Contributor come into play, way more then in other Open Source Comunitys.
The Second Problem is with the Mods - they try, because it is there Nature, to build, every side for itself, a Cathedral in the Middle of the Spring-Basar. It is a rough Surrounding and maybee we should hang out - in the same Folder with the Forum Ruules, a big warning sign.
One thing however is that, the more fanbase a Mod, AI or Else has, the more stable and imune to flames, the Contributor is. Spring needs to hand out more FanCookies to the Comunity...

[Forboding Angel]

Then why is it only the people who haven't actually worked with AF who have positive opinions?

Counterbalance

Honestly in the particular situation, I can understand the frustrations on both sides.

But meh, for better or worse, that's pretty much over with.

[Lindir The Green]

Then why is it only the people who haven't actually worked with AF who have positive opinions?

Uh...

I've worked with AF a lot with NTai and Epic, and I have a positive opinion of him. Though in both projects I am below him in "rank." It might be that if I were above him I would think differently.

The problem is that, while I don't think he is, he comes of as arrogant. A while ago we had a link to a site that talked a little about how text based communication is often misunderstood, and I think that's what was happening. So then people (and especially devs) treated him as if he were arrogant, and he overreacted to that, and thought that everyone (especially the devs) were out to get him.

So now he doesn't frequent the main spring site. I hope he comes back here sometime, for the overall betterment of spring. He was a coder, and a very motivated coder, and we can always use more of those.

But he will never come back here if everybody is talking about how arrogant he is, because then he will continue being paranoid.

[PicassoCT]

The problem is that, while I don't think he is, he comes of as arrogant. A while ago we had a link to a site that talked a little about how text based communication is often misunderstood, and I think that's what was happening. So then people (and especially devs) treated him as if he were arrogant, and he overreacted to that, and thought that everyone (especially the dev

So we have a Textbased Communication Deficit.. this is not a reason to stop talking Lindir, if we have this, we should find a way solving it, as long as there are still people around who can..

Suggestions:
Giving Every Post a Miniature Poll to rate it, if you want, into Categorys how "easy flameable" certain persons find it. Missunderstood Posts would be fast visible and could be corrected....

And this way the Mod could already do antiflame work before the fire even starts..

[jcnossen]

I really don't see how anybody here can justify preventing him from contributing, particularly in patch form, on the basis of how difficult it is to work with him.

Very well, will you be the one then who maintains and fixes his patches?
I am tired of these outsiders that think they are able to judge the actual contributors...

[Neddie]

None of us intend to undermine the accomplishments of actual contributors, we seek to recognize them all impartially. The mere idea that you would imply that it was otherwise is quite frankly absurd and offensive, and I don't use those terms lightly. I became active in the Spring community because I saw a project, a monumental undertaking on many fronts, that I believed was noble and brilliant - from the developers to the players. I still believe that, despite how terribly turbulent it has appeared since I started playing.

Moreover I am not judging you, or Betalord, or anybody else. I am willing, as always, to work in what capacity I can for the goal of the project, though my skills in many categories are developing.

Would you like me to regulate his patches or find somebody to do so? I'm not familiar with the code or the language, but I could at the very least filter them given a month or so of practice. What specifically are the issues with his patches? With his behaviour?

[SwiftSpear]

AF will be missed, but really the problems here were almost entirely his own doing and problems with the way he saw things. Like jelmer says, I challenge anyone here to show me development work that AF did and during that time did not start a vendetta or drama against someone else working on a similar project. Spring development likely will never be as static and mechanical as AF would like it to be.

[pintle]

*throws in his two cents*

I dont contribute to spring in any way other than playing a LOT of xta. I have played quite a few games with AF and found him to be a very capable player, considerate to his team mates, and fun to talk to in the lobby. If there are some issues of "proffessional" conflict then fair enough, try not to engage in a working relationship with him, but i feel it is unfair and counterproductive to attack him on a personal basis.



Long Live XTA

[Dr.InfernO]

AF was anything but nice.
I also had the feeling that he thinks he can also outvalue some of the existing Spring dev. Team members.
Did you also regonize, that he did not support the current lobby system? He doesn't have real own ideas, he just recreates and "tries" to improve. - In a bad way.
and crappy code is the result.

Ehh? He wrote an entire lobby by himself, that was looking really nice. If he ever finishes it, I can guarantee that I will switch in a heartbeat.

That said, why would he support the current lobby? Not sure if you missed the memo or not but the current lobby is far from optimal. Combined with betalords "Better than thou" attitude and unwillingness to accept help or suggestions, the poor state of the current lobby is betalord's own fault.

Inferno, considering that you were one (if not THE one) of the ppl involved with dedicated server trials, you should know this already.

All in all, yours is a pretty poor statement of character.

Ahh yes forboding,... the guy who is allways trying to provoke.




Sorry, but if you are going to attack me personaly I can go other ways.
Look out!

And why do you say Betalord is declineing proposals?
He IS definitly accepting suggestions. (if you talk to him to a common-sense way)
And it's not allways so easy than some of those uber hax0rs here are all thinking.

The current lobby system is far better than some of you are thinking and most of all. - it's save.

[Das Bruce]

The current lobby system is far better than some of you are thinking

Its acceptable, little more.

[KDR_11k]

I interpret that comment as meaning he doesn't like anyone who's ranked higher than Swift Spear.

And what kind of "youth" are we talking about here? 13, aka "OMG TA needs more Krogoths and super nukes!"? 16? 18? 21?

[Raign]

this has become a complete disaster how many more people like AF are we willing to loose, if this keeps up all the main people will be gone and Ta Spring will die.

[BlackLiger]

Then why is it only the people who haven't actually worked with AF who have positive opinions?

Sorry, but I'm calling bull on that, cheif.

I've worked with AF and have a positive opinion of him.

[Snipawolf]

And what kind of "youth" are we talking about here? 13, aka "OMG TA needs more Krogoths and super nukes!"?

Damnit, Stop teasing me, you should remember I am 13..

And I do not run around saying TA spring needs more krogs and super nukes!

Edit: Yeah, I know I am smarter than 95% of all 13 year olds, but it still feels like a direct attack..

[KDR_11k]

Well, you sure do love that Death Stinger...

[Snipawolf]

I love the Model of it, I have nowhere near the scripting skillz to make it move or shoot, lol

And the same argument could be valid for CT and Supcom, you know..

[unpossible]

He's also very young and has all the attributes associated with youth, including making rash deicisions. Don't blame him for being a kid, and don't carry a grudge forever. He believes he's doing the right thing, which nobody can fault.

apparently so: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,379 ... 44,00.html

seems a shame that people round here tend to get moody, but if this is anything to go by you're quite right. we can't blame them, only hope they learn how to deal with life eventually.