I hereby take away any rights to distribute NTai or its buildtrees with spring, It's to be removed from the 0.72 installer, and not released in future versions of spring, and that includes 0.73. Its also to be removed from the release branch of spring.
All post XE9.23 code is now non-gpl untill NTai has been removed from distribution by the spring team.
NTai release branch
Moderators: hoijui, Moderators
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hollowsoul
- Posts: 665
- Joined: 06 Jun 2006, 19:49
Not to be an absolute pain.
But werent u the one complaining other AI's werent gpl.
And also its GPL nothing to stop someone from using old version of NTAI bot thats GPL and continuing work on it from that point onwards.
The whole point of GPL is not beening able to take rights away from it down the road. And stop people adding code to it thats non GPL i.e whole bsd court case thing.
Pretty sure u could stop releasing your version as GPL since u own the copyright of it, but thats about it. U can ask people to stop distrubting it. But thats about all u can do.
And posting on forums instead of mailing list isnt IMO best way to ask dev's to stop distrubting it IMO?
So its pretty much going to be up to dev's to remove it or not.
Although if not maintained it eventually go bitrotten & have to be removed anyway at some stage
edit:- Just pointing out some facts about GPL. Guess we lost another AI dev
But werent u the one complaining other AI's werent gpl.
And also its GPL nothing to stop someone from using old version of NTAI bot thats GPL and continuing work on it from that point onwards.
The whole point of GPL is not beening able to take rights away from it down the road. And stop people adding code to it thats non GPL i.e whole bsd court case thing.
Pretty sure u could stop releasing your version as GPL since u own the copyright of it, but thats about it. U can ask people to stop distrubting it. But thats about all u can do.
And posting on forums instead of mailing list isnt IMO best way to ask dev's to stop distrubting it IMO?
So its pretty much going to be up to dev's to remove it or not.
Although if not maintained it eventually go bitrotten & have to be removed anyway at some stage
edit:- Just pointing out some facts about GPL. Guess we lost another AI dev
Note that the AI interface, which is included by every AI, is GPL.
But IANAL and I've better things to do then sending GPL violation letters to Krogothe & AF (and any other AI dev that has a more recent binary online then the recentmost source, if any sourcecode at all) at this moment.
For reference:
But IANAL and I've better things to do then sending GPL violation letters to Krogothe & AF (and any other AI dev that has a more recent binary online then the recentmost source, if any sourcecode at all) at this moment.
For reference:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLAndPlugins wrote: If a program released under the GPL uses plug-ins, what are the requirements for the licenses of a plug-in.
It depends on how the program invokes its plug-ins. If the program uses fork and exec to invoke plug-ins, then the plug-ins are separate programs, so the license for the main program makes no requirements for them.
If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins. This means the plug-ins must be released under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license, and that the terms of the GPL must be followed when those plug-ins are distributed.
If the program dynamically links plug-ins, but the communication between them is limited to invoking the `main' function of the plug-in with some options and waiting for it to return, that is a borderline case.
I stated my wishes, and I've removed GPL status from future versions untill the changes I asked for are made.
The versions of NTai I speak of when I mention GPL are currently Dev builds not public releases, and public releases will always be GPL, however I wont be releasing anything as long as the spring team are distributing NTai.
However because of the mention of a fork, then I will include current versions of NTai also.
Untill NTai distribution by the spring team stops, any NTai versions publicly released are OpenSource but not GPL and I reserve all rights for myself. You may privately compile and test or modify NTai but distribution through means other than myself are not allowed.
GPL status will be reinstated upon compliance.
And while I may have respected such a post from you hollowsoul, udner normal circumstances I would never have cosndiered makign anythign that resembles this thread, but I have lost all respect and patience for the devs at this point in time and I am not going to change my mind.
Cease and desist distributing NTai immediatly from anywhere other than Darkstars.co.uk.
The versions of NTai I speak of when I mention GPL are currently Dev builds not public releases, and public releases will always be GPL, however I wont be releasing anything as long as the spring team are distributing NTai.
However because of the mention of a fork, then I will include current versions of NTai also.
Untill NTai distribution by the spring team stops, any NTai versions publicly released are OpenSource but not GPL and I reserve all rights for myself. You may privately compile and test or modify NTai but distribution through means other than myself are not allowed.
GPL status will be reinstated upon compliance.
And while I may have respected such a post from you hollowsoul, udner normal circumstances I would never have cosndiered makign anythign that resembles this thread, but I have lost all respect and patience for the devs at this point in time and I am not going to change my mind.
Cease and desist distributing NTai immediatly from anywhere other than Darkstars.co.uk.
Exit, i designed and half implemented a system for autoupdating that will eventually be a generic updater of mods and maps, but now its future is in question.
First off I'm not going mad. If anything I feel backstabbed not loopy, and this cannot be 100% attributed to the XE7.5 fiasco. tbh the XE7.5 binaries should have been removed from the installer months ago but they werent despite me first nicely asking then escalating over several months.
As for spring releases not being as often as NTai releases, I think you'll find when 0.72 was released the lastest version of NTai was nto XE7.5, btu XE8 and had been for at least a month, the disadvantages and buggyness of XE7.5 was well known as where the vast improvements in XE8.
Some people have started making side comments that this is all because I cant take critiscism, possibly criticism of the bounty patch. Possibly over a 1 line bugfix that trepan knew exactly where and what and could easily have fixed that lead to a week of flaming on IRC from the lead devs.
Infact I explained some of the reasons for making this decision about NTai over at smoths forums and got responses that it was quite sound logical reasoning. It isnt as simple as saying lets bundle all the AI's that're good enough with spring is.
As for legalities, nobody here can call on the former GPL status of NTai as long as KAI is closed source, which breaks Springs own GPL license and has done unenforced for a long time.
In fitting with that I'll be locking and removing access to NTai installers untill my demands are complied with, and I'll be removing NTai from the svn shortly too.
2 years of my life I've spent on this forum, doing things for this community and never have I felt so hurt and unwelcome by the people that it mattered the most. For a long time I put in absurd hours working on things for this place, I'd come home from school about 4 go on ym computer then come off to goto sleep at 1AM on a regular basis for months, pretty much obsessed.
Certain people have regularly said things to me that really hurt me a lot over the last few weeks and I cant take any of it any more. I'm sick fo people making me out to be an arrogant bastard because I have my programs autosign on to places and people start asking things of me at 3AM in the morning and I wont do them, I'm sick of people thinking ' oh lets take this piss out of AF, its not like he has feelings or hes gonna go bugger off, he's just stupid', I'm sick of people ganging up on me and talking about me behind my back, and I'm sick of people slandering me or insisting I'm not in control of my faculties everytime I try to exert control over my own projects and ideas.
I know many of you will probably just say ignore them they're just asshats on the forums, but these arent idle people with nothing better todo, these arent things that can all be fixed with a flick of a wand by a forum moderator.
First off I'm not going mad. If anything I feel backstabbed not loopy, and this cannot be 100% attributed to the XE7.5 fiasco. tbh the XE7.5 binaries should have been removed from the installer months ago but they werent despite me first nicely asking then escalating over several months.
As for spring releases not being as often as NTai releases, I think you'll find when 0.72 was released the lastest version of NTai was nto XE7.5, btu XE8 and had been for at least a month, the disadvantages and buggyness of XE7.5 was well known as where the vast improvements in XE8.
Some people have started making side comments that this is all because I cant take critiscism, possibly criticism of the bounty patch. Possibly over a 1 line bugfix that trepan knew exactly where and what and could easily have fixed that lead to a week of flaming on IRC from the lead devs.
Infact I explained some of the reasons for making this decision about NTai over at smoths forums and got responses that it was quite sound logical reasoning. It isnt as simple as saying lets bundle all the AI's that're good enough with spring is.
As for legalities, nobody here can call on the former GPL status of NTai as long as KAI is closed source, which breaks Springs own GPL license and has done unenforced for a long time.
In fitting with that I'll be locking and removing access to NTai installers untill my demands are complied with, and I'll be removing NTai from the svn shortly too.
2 years of my life I've spent on this forum, doing things for this community and never have I felt so hurt and unwelcome by the people that it mattered the most. For a long time I put in absurd hours working on things for this place, I'd come home from school about 4 go on ym computer then come off to goto sleep at 1AM on a regular basis for months, pretty much obsessed.
Certain people have regularly said things to me that really hurt me a lot over the last few weeks and I cant take any of it any more. I'm sick fo people making me out to be an arrogant bastard because I have my programs autosign on to places and people start asking things of me at 3AM in the morning and I wont do them, I'm sick of people thinking ' oh lets take this piss out of AF, its not like he has feelings or hes gonna go bugger off, he's just stupid', I'm sick of people ganging up on me and talking about me behind my back, and I'm sick of people slandering me or insisting I'm not in control of my faculties everytime I try to exert control over my own projects and ideas.
I know many of you will probably just say ignore them they're just asshats on the forums, but these arent idle people with nothing better todo, these arent things that can all be fixed with a flick of a wand by a forum moderator.
KDR: I'm not saying it would be nice (I'm quite far away from saying that 
) - just pointing out that if The Bad Evil Devs won't listen, they won't do anything *technically* wrong... He went GPL, therefore he can't eat the cake and have the cake just because he wants to (no offense, I'm just an observer.) This situation is one of the things the GPL was designed for.
) - just pointing out that if The Bad Evil Devs won't listen, they won't do anything *technically* wrong... He went GPL, therefore he can't eat the cake and have the cake just because he wants to (no offense, I'm just an observer.) This situation is one of the things the GPL was designed for.Remember back then, the AI wars with you bullshitting around?AF wrote:I've been told the devs might be planning on releasing 0.73 with an older version of NTai just to spite me and my request.
And how you were bitching about submarine not going open source?
Open source, and especially gpl, means that what YOU say NOW, means SHIT about what ANYBODY can do with your code.
Have a nice day, "mr ai programmer" :D
Edit: and about your ranting about devs and whatssoever: Other forums i frequent had rather nice discussions after they discovered spring. For example that ai is in development, but the main problem was that the most vocal coder is a rutter retard and casts a bad light on the whole project.
Guess who they were talking about?
Submarine was actively distributing AAI at the time. I however am only aware of several private copies I put up myself for personal use. You'll find RC22 is no longer accessible and tvo removed NTai from the svn as I requested (the installer still hasnt been rebuilt, I would rebuild it myself but I dont know how its been setup).
Right now I am not violating the GPL license by having a nonGPL ai that isnt publicly distributed. I also didnt promise to keep things opensource in the next release then ignore my promise and go closed source, and this is neither a release or a lunch either.
But right now I dont care about any argument. I've made my wishes clear, and if anything theyd be followed out of respect.
Right now I am not violating the GPL license by having a nonGPL ai that isnt publicly distributed. I also didnt promise to keep things opensource in the next release then ignore my promise and go closed source, and this is neither a release or a lunch either.
But right now I dont care about any argument. I've made my wishes clear, and if anything theyd be followed out of respect.
I couldn't upload XE8 to SVN because it was incompatible with Linux (the reason NTAI ended up in SVN in the first place was because I ported version 4 and sent a patch to the mailing list. Chris Han promptly imported NTAI).As for spring releases not being as often as NTai releases, I think you'll find when 0.72 was released the lastest version of NTai was nto XE7.5, btu XE8 and had been for at least a month, the disadvantages and buggyness of XE7.5 was well known as where the vast improvements in XE8.
I didn't have time to fix it before the release, and for the above reasons it wouldn't have made sense to import a broken XE8. At that time releases were unexpected - even for me.
tbh, it is common sense that you take responsibility for code you write. Even if it's just a one line fix and even if it's committed in a repository that's not adminned by yourself.Some people have started making side comments that this is all because I cant take critiscism, possibly criticism of the bounty patch. Possibly over a 1 line bugfix that trepan knew exactly where and what and could easily have fixed that lead to a week of flaming on IRC from the lead devs.
You clearly said on IRC that you didn't care: it was committed so it was not your concern anymore, and it would be our job to fix it.
Now that pisses me off.
Infact I explained some of the reasons for making this decision about NTai over at smoths forums and got responses that it was quite sound logical reasoning. It isnt as simple as saying lets bundle all the AI's that're good enough with spring is.
Third party modules can impossibly break a programs license. There also is no law whatsoever that forces us to hunt down everyone who violates the GPL and sent them copyright infringment letters. Third party module X doesn't change anything about the legal status of module Y, ie. the existance of KAI doesn't give you the legal right to do the same.As for legalities, nobody here can call on the former GPL status of NTai as long as KAI is closed source, which breaks Springs own GPL license and has done unenforced for a long time.
I've deleted it already.In fitting with that I'll be locking and removing access to NTai installers untill my demands are complied with, and I'll be removing NTai from the svn shortly too.
Certain people have regularly said things to me that really hurt me a lot over the last few weeks and I cant take any of it any more. I'm sick fo people making me out to be an arrogant bastard because I have my programs autosign on to places and people start asking things of me at 3AM in the morning and I wont do them, I'm sick of people thinking ' oh lets take this piss out of AF, its not like he has feelings or hes gonna go bugger off, he's just stupid', I'm sick of people ganging up on me and talking about me behind my back, and I'm sick of people slandering me or insisting I'm not in control of my faculties everytime I try to exert control over my own projects and ideas.
I'd like to point out that complaining about people talking about you behind your back is a bit hypocrite imho.
It could be fixed by constructive comments on non-exaggerated talk.I know many of you will probably just say ignore them they're just asshats on the forums, but these arent idle people with nothing better todo, these arent things that can all be fixed with a flick of a wand by a forum moderator.
I know, I've been reacting in wrong way sometimes too, but the same thing applies to me as to you: sometimes I'm just annoyed at things, whether or not it's spring related, and that may have resulted in 1 or 2 flamewar-like threads/discussions.
Ever realized spreading lies like that may annoy us?I've been told the devs might be planning on releasing 0.73 with an older version of NTai just to spite me and my request.
This is not the first time you do it.
EDIT: Note this is not to start an argument. I'm just expressing my point of view.
Last edited by Tobi on 14 Sep 2006, 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
ahem, from a friend sitting in #syEver realized spreading lies like that may annoy us?
This is not the first time you do it.
[20:01] tvo: but guess I'll just rm -rf all NTai stuff and point people to an older revision
[20:01] NOiZE: that crossed my mind too when i read it
I also stated I was tired very hot and had a lot todo and simply wanted you all to stop having a go at me. Trepan had fixed 1 or two bugs I didnt even realize would occur because it wasnt code I worked with normally yet he decided to ommit this tiny fix and pass it on to me in IRC at an awkward time in the middle of a discussion? I remember asking him what it was, and getting something back about consistencies that i didnt understand so you all flamed me for not understanding and then did the same thing again when I signed on the next day.You clearly said on IRC that you didn't care: it was committed so it was not your concern anymore, and it would be our job to fix it.
Really, the whole thing should have just stuck between me and trepan, there was no need for you and jelmer to but in and have a go, and trepan could have been more tactful about it himself.
You know tobi, I dont see any real issue with you, you've admitted you where wrong for some thigns and I agree and I wouldnt have put anymore on you, and yes I did some things wrong too, when I feel threatened I come out with all guns blazing, but a lot of things have ben said about me which have hurt me a lot and its been going on for quite a while now, and it's all too much.
I really would like a nice fresh new start with all the devs, and I've tried being nice but certain people just cant loose the cold shoulder and the attitude towards me, and just dont realize if you have a problem talk to me and deal and instead let it fester then go on at me then wonder why I react.....
I really would like a nice fresh new start with all the devs, and I've tried being nice but certain people just cant loose the cold shoulder and the attitude towards me, and just dont realize if you have a problem talk to me and deal and instead let it fester then go on at me then wonder why I react.....
You have problems with the entire dev crew and still think it is us who are wrong?
Also, "point people to an older revision" (if they want the source) is something entirely different than releasing with an old version.
- You have tried submitting several patches and when asked to fix their flaws, you reply with saying you will not fix it or fix it in a couple of months.
- With every patch, you claim that you have tested it thoroughly, we apply it and discover you barely tested at all. We then ask you to fix it, which you refuse because suddenly you are too stupid to take any kind of hint. Even when trepan points you to the piece of code that causes the bug.
- Everytime you say something stupid we are supposed to know that you are in a bad mood (or in this case you are tired ...) somehow and therefore it is normal to say bullshit. Communication doesn't work that way.
Even if your code would be useful, we are not able to communicate normally with you somehow, so it really causes more trouble than its worth.
And Forb, how is it not a public forum? Everyone can access it...
Also, "point people to an older revision" (if they want the source) is something entirely different than releasing with an old version.
- You have tried submitting several patches and when asked to fix their flaws, you reply with saying you will not fix it or fix it in a couple of months.
- With every patch, you claim that you have tested it thoroughly, we apply it and discover you barely tested at all. We then ask you to fix it, which you refuse because suddenly you are too stupid to take any kind of hint. Even when trepan points you to the piece of code that causes the bug.
- Everytime you say something stupid we are supposed to know that you are in a bad mood (or in this case you are tired ...) somehow and therefore it is normal to say bullshit. Communication doesn't work that way.
Even if your code would be useful, we are not able to communicate normally with you somehow, so it really causes more trouble than its worth.
And Forb, how is it not a public forum? Everyone can access it...