Should LOS be increased?

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 06 May 2005, 17:45

gameplaywise there shouldn't be much changes in the LOS except from the how it's being displayed.. i want to see the LOS without the radarcoverage for example..

Rayden · Post by **Rayden** » 06 May 2005, 17:48

looser, i guess your proposal is not possible. This maps would be far too large. But at least a support up to epic maps should be possible.

Anyway LOS has to be increased, i suggest 2x for ground troops/ships and 3x for aircrafts. For subs 1.5-2x. This seem to be approriate values.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 06 May 2005, 17:50

increasing the los that much will ruin the gameplay imo

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 06 May 2005, 17:56

For me, the los must depent of the range of fire.
I'll try on OTA and see if in evOTA it's the same.

edit : After testing, it more or less the same...

I think LOS should be more often updated, but I don't know the performace repercution..

Rayden · Post by **Rayden** » 06 May 2005, 17:56

So orginal Total Annihilation has a ruined gameplay? Not really. The current LOS is far too short imho, i don't wanna fight radar blips i want to see some units. Even with my suggested increase you have enough blips, Noise :)

The Grand Poobah · Post by **The Grand Poobah** » 06 May 2005, 17:57

I think LOS definitely needs to be increased. I'm getting tired of watching battles between dots, I want to see the fighting in all its glory. I don't think it would ruin gameplay. Sure it would change it a bit, patrolling peepers wouldn't be so important, but is it that big a deal? It would make the game itself much more fun to watch. If you care about gameplay so much go play TA.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 06 May 2005, 19:07

Rayden wrote:So orginal Total Annihilation has a ruined gameplay? Not really. The current LOS is far too short imho, i don't wanna fight radar blips i want to see some units. Even with my suggested increase you have enough blips, Noise :)

Really in the original TA u we're also fighting the blips, but it went almost unnoticed cause the blips weren't on the map it self.

U need a spotting unit so units with longer range can target correctly, but now u don't need spotting units, having radar is enuf, so units will fire automatic on the blips and therefore u get the feeling of fighting blips... In original TA having radar did not ment your units would fire at the blips, unles u had a targeting facility.

U want to lose the feeling u fight blips, well just remove them from the map then....

So, i think increasing the LOS will hav a major effect on the gameplay.
just my 2 cents

10053r · Post by **10053r** » 06 May 2005, 19:53

It looks like some people misinterpreted my comments. I think that we have two options.

1) Increase LOS. When we do this, we need to increase weapons range, unit speeds, and map sizes. To make LOS realistic, we need to be fighting over realistic amounts of territory. Think country sized pieces of territory, like the area over which the battle of the bulge was fought, or Kuwait. Obviously, this is a spectrum, so if we increase average map size by a factor of 10, we can increase LOS, speed, and weapons range by a similar factor. It will still be unrealistic to fight over areas of territory the size of my grandparent's back yard, but it will be better than fighting over spots the size of a largish baseball field.

2) Leave it the way it is. Yes, LOS is unrealistic. Yes, I can personally can see farther away than a 50 meter tall battle mech capable of sustaining multiple direct hits from sizable chunks of anti-matter. Yes this is a problem, but it is a smaller problem than having a game where everyone can see everything all at once.

Rayden · Post by **Rayden** » 06 May 2005, 19:57

Aehm sorry but thread title and discussion have choosed different ways

.

Thread title "Is LOS realistic" was originally meant for interaction with hills and so on, it wasn't meant to be is LOS realistic compared to map size. But as the discussion has turned this way, once again my point:

Set LOS like it was in original TA!!!!

PS: Noize, don't panic. I will post some comparison screens soon.

EDIT: I have adjusted the thread title to the discussion

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 06 May 2005, 20:20

@10053r Yeah, I misinterpreted your comment.

With your point of view, I don't mind if los is realistic or not.

HellToupee · Post by **HellToupee** » 07 May 2005, 02:42

ild like los increase, dont like having spotter planes just so my peewee can see what its shooting,its possible to build forifications right beside enemy ones with the short LOS and radar jammers galore happen to me one time a unit strayed from jamming range and boom. It may have been fine in OTA but when in 3D it just dose not play right, hell i had a metal extractor last a whole game behind enemy lines just outside of a few BBs and annihilators view radius

Buggi · Post by **Buggi** » 07 May 2005, 03:21

For me, bottom line, if it's not a Super LR weapon it should see as far as it shoots.

LRP weapons and missles being two exceptions, I'm sure there can be others. But if my tank is rolling around, it should, at a minimum, see as far as it shoots.

HellToupee · Post by **HellToupee** » 07 May 2005, 03:44

^ agree

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 07 May 2005, 04:49

Shouldn't this be in the mod forum?

Rayden · Post by **Rayden** » 07 May 2005, 07:11

But if my tank is rolling around, it should, at a minimum, see as far as it shoots.

No, that's the wrong approach. Unit's should see more, but not this far! Radar must still have a major importance in game.

The Grand Poobah · Post by **The Grand Poobah** » 07 May 2005, 15:53

If units could see as far as they shoot, the radar wouldn't lose all functionality. In fact, it would make it worth as much as it was in Cavedog's TA, since it would just point out where the enemy is, and automatic radar targeting wouldn't be as much of a problem as some people think, since basically only LRPCs would use it. I think it's a great idea, as it would balance the radar to Cavedog TA standards, and it would keep microing to a minimum, and most importantly it would allow us to watch the battles.

BeeDee · Post by **BeeDee** » 07 May 2005, 19:59

Indeed. Units can't be everywhere at once, radar would be useful for keeping surveilance blanketed over huge regions of the map so that you have the opportunity to move your units to counter an attack before it actually arrives. With the current short LOS I feel like my units are stumbling around in the dark even though it's bright and sunny out, especially if I'm out on a mission beyond my base radar and I've lost the mobile radars that I stuck in the squad.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 08 May 2005, 02:20

sp2danny72 has had the best idea in here thus far.

I think there should be a per-map fog-density witch should
determine how far you can see...

.

I agree with this. It would mean that different maps would have different LOS, an excellent repercussion. A flat moon map, for example, would allow units to see to the absolue extent of their LOS. However, units on a foggy mars map (like 'altored mars') would not be able to see very far at all.

Hooking a units LOS to fog settings is very useful, because it means that maps have even more realistic effect on gameplay, giving far more power to the map maker. It also means that weather effects (

) can far easily effect LOS in units. If units have LOS effected by default fog settings on maps, and weather effects (once put in) alter that default fog setting to increase/decrease fog (such as during blizzards, sandstorms, etc), then by inference, weather effects would affect units LOS.[/quote]

AF · Post by AF » 08 May 2005, 02:51

How do we create very foggy maps without buggering up our LOS then?

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 08 May 2005, 03:08

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

You can't have a foggy map without having it effect LOS. The two go hand in hand, just as in real life.

Spring RTS Engine

Should LOS be increased?