What, So you idiots can keep argueing on about something trivial that has barely anything to do with the thred? THis is why smoth left, Because people just won't shut up in an arguement.
I like EE, And IF this thread gets locked, Fang might not make another one, And the mod will Die.
DIE
DIE
And It will be all your fault.
Expand and Exterminate version 0.163 Released
Moderator: Moderators
-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Look, GD is getting more tricks, as it needs them, it is being discussed internally, however, Yan, when you get a basic understanding of the mod and then play it and understand how it works, come back. Until then please stop posting because you are helping nothing.
It is generally bad form to go to a game forum and say the game has serious issues when you don't even know what specialized units are for.
If I ever play as GD, I use laser tanks extensively. Their high dps rips urc a new asshole. You would be kinda dumb not to use them with your forces honestly. They are simply good to have around.
Also, a little known fact. The vladost tank is capable of shooting over the bow of the laser tank.
It is generally bad form to go to a game forum and say the game has serious issues when you don't even know what specialized units are for.
If I ever play as GD, I use laser tanks extensively. Their high dps rips urc a new asshole. You would be kinda dumb not to use them with your forces honestly. They are simply good to have around.
Also, a little known fact. The vladost tank is capable of shooting over the bow of the laser tank.
Re: new balance for ee
Wow those are some seriously radical ideas. Im gonna go down the list and address as many as possible.
One final note before i move on to specific points. Fang has a fairly well setup design doc. Many things u mention completely and utterly go against that and really just won't be listened to.
Your turret requests are confusing at best but this is what i got: U want Fast firing turrets that make up for the slow speed of tanks?!?!? And they should have limited vertical fire arcs so they can't hit targets a different heights. I have no idea why u want this they make very little sense to me.
A lack of turrets would drive people away not bring them in. Most players play TA based mods and as such expect fairly powerful turrets. Also no player would want to constantly have to rebuild there resources over and over again as u suggest. That would only serve the purpose of driving people away.
i have more but ill get to it later.
PLEASE Listen. Why does everyone say there is no variety? I have feeling that the idea comes from how in TA based mods; each unit is completely different from any other unit in the game. The same roles are still filled but they use different weapons/styles/graphics etc... Please everyone remember that this is nothing like that. This has some basis in reality. In reality unit designs don't radically change between the varying classes of units. The best example of this is WWII. While tanks varied between sides and weight class, a Tiger doesn't look that different from a Sherman design wise. IE both have tracks, a turret, and a main chassis._YAN_ wrote: Im talking about differences u see in emmm... well Earth2160.. all sides are very very different..
so u have like 1 side that has a certain capability and the others dont have it..
so what u need in my opinion.. is the following:
One final note before i move on to specific points. Fang has a fairly well setup design doc. Many things u mention completely and utterly go against that and really just won't be listened to.
As of right now, GD is more powerful, has longer range, and is slower than URC. Those three points are most apparent in the artillery differences. As to removing arty that goes against Fang's design doc._YAN_ wrote: GD:
lvl 1:basic units.. like what u have now.. only without art.. and slower but have a bit bigger range than
urc..(gd tactics...head on attacks..pushing with range and hevy armor..)
gd lvl 1 def buildings:are turrets that shoot at a very fast rates
to compinsate for the slow tanks barrel movement...and the speed of urc units.. but have almost no shooting capabilities at
situations involving different hights..
Your turret requests are confusing at best but this is what i got: U want Fast firing turrets that make up for the slow speed of tanks?!?!? And they should have limited vertical fire arcs so they can't hit targets a different heights. I have no idea why u want this they make very little sense to me.
As with GD, the URC changes u describe are already in effect. URC is cheaper and weaker. in fact the phrase "what we get is.. gd expends much slower.. but in head to head rules unless flanked.." is already true._YAN_ wrote: urc:
lvl 1:basic units.. but cheaper and faster...(urc tactics.. hit and run and flank..maybe make gd tank barrels spin slower
and in a head to head combat where metal value of units on each side is the same gd must be able to outdo in a big way the urc forces
)
urc lvl 1 def structures:none.. urc mexes become very very cheap to the extent where urc builders can build em again and again
after gd piliges..
(what we get is.. gd expends much slower.. but in head to head rules unless flanked..
A lack of turrets would drive people away not bring them in. Most players play TA based mods and as such expect fairly powerful turrets. Also no player would want to constantly have to rebuild there resources over and over again as u suggest. That would only serve the purpose of driving people away.
Again this is already true. GD's lvl 2 is slower and needs lvl 1 assistance so they don't get out manuvered._YAN_ wrote: GD:
lvl2:tanks are much much heavier and slower needing assistance.. for smaller units.. cause they can be outflanked but gd recieve artillary..
a vary capable 1 able to effectivly bring down targets that are on hills montains.....
Mines are effective if used correctly. again URC is weaker in a straight up fight compared to GD._YAN_ wrote: urc:
lvl 2:are much weaker than lvl2 gd but again are very fast moving... comparing to lvl 2 tanks..
urc recieve minlayeing capabilites..but effective ones.. allowing them to build mine fields
making serious problems for gd tanks to move..
Fang has repeatedly said there will not be air cons since they can be spammed for Assist building which he doesn' want._YAN_ wrote:
about the planes.. at lvl 2 and lvl 3 special builders of gd are able to build turret like unable
to move bots wich can be transported ..there will be a need in them cause they will be anti air
and fast shooting.. they will be traned with helis..
This whole approach is so complicated people would get frustrated and stop playing. No one wants to have to organize massive transport queue just to move turrets around. Thats too much micro._YAN_ wrote: gd will have no anti air capabilities except the turrets.. and will only have tran builders that
will allow to build on hills but will have trouble with urc fighters and air capabilites.
urcs air must balance the unbalance that is to be created in the land wars..between the 2..
urc planes will have full capabilites.. exept for tran ...and scouting..
Remove lvl 3 tanks?!?!?!? Those are one of the coolest aspects of GD not to mention they embody the Frontal Assault doctrine u want so much for GD. Again no one wants to have to setup complicated transport routes to move turrets around the map. Also how can a group that focuses on Frontal Assualt work if their units don't move!!!!_YAN_ wrote: lvl 3: gd have no lvl 3 land units.. they have only lvl 3 planes.. at which huge unmoving turetts
that will be units of course to allow transportation..they will be traned and will be
unable to move..but will be extremly heavy..other smaller turrets will make the anti air force..
urc:reciev lvl 3 land than can deal with lvl 2 gd tanks although still slightly disadvataged..
those units will be bly to cloack..and pass gd defences...
basicly what u get is urc hit and run and air raids.. while gd are frontals but have terrible
movement problems..
and require air to tran..
these ideas are of course very raw and need to be worked on..
but i think they area good basis to make all lvls and sides completly different..
i have more but ill get to it later.
-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
aham. well all the speed power armor differances need to be pushed further..
the turret part is as followed.. u tran them to front lines.. u dont have many of these anyways.. so its no big deal at all....
remember the fact that lvl 2 gd tanks can still measure up against lvl 3 urc..
and the urc art in my opinin must be remove..
the fast shooting turrets are to increase defence.. if u have slow moving tanks that can be outflanked u need turrets than can cut down fast moving weak units..
the turret part is as followed.. u tran them to front lines.. u dont have many of these anyways.. so its no big deal at all....
remember the fact that lvl 2 gd tanks can still measure up against lvl 3 urc..
and the urc art in my opinin must be remove..
the fast shooting turrets are to increase defence.. if u have slow moving tanks that can be outflanked u need turrets than can cut down fast moving weak units..
YAN if GD uses all turrets that a real powerful the only easy way to kill them is with ARTY. that is one of the main building blocks of the mod. Arty is used to break stalemate/porcing/etc. Removing them from the side thats going against turrest makes no sence what so ever. also im in the Lobby right now lets talkt ther itll be easier
Oh yes. I've not played much, but I love laser tanks. If you've ever seen what a L2 laser tank does to a base if it manages to get past the defenders... You know why.Forboding Angel wrote:If I ever play as GD, I use laser tanks extensively. Their high dps rips urc a new asshole. You would be kinda dumb not to use them with your forces honestly. They are simply good to have around.
Apparently he left while i was on vacation. I completely missed his farewell thread.Forboding Angel wrote:how did oyu not know that sheekel?
You need to come around more ;p
Anyway, 3 cheers for smoth.
Also, _Yan_, you're talking about completely changing everything about this mod.
You should consider making your own mod, because these changes would turn EE into something very different.
Essentially, I've arrived a little late to this party, and by that I mean a day late. Anyway...
I have only recently begun to seriously play GD, having personally favoured static minefields and stealth over direct power ever since I started with the mod. However, as mentioned, laser tanks are highly effective in the right places - and in my opinion are some of the more efficent as well as effective units when microed in E&E.
The three sides in E&E are very different in play style and execution as they are presented now, though, of course, NI isn't the most viable option. Indeed, I think E&E has more side diversity than anything else I've ever played which had any sort of balance.
Air as it is happens to be one of the smoothest and best uses of the unit type in any RTS. It is support. No constructors, significant differences - yet effective. It lends GD the high response time their land units lack in addition to the pure scouting and raiding power URC gains from it.
And, last but not least, making GD into a land-immobile force has many prospective issues in addition to those mentioned, which I may sum up in the words: Effects of terrain deformation.
I have only recently begun to seriously play GD, having personally favoured static minefields and stealth over direct power ever since I started with the mod. However, as mentioned, laser tanks are highly effective in the right places - and in my opinion are some of the more efficent as well as effective units when microed in E&E.
The three sides in E&E are very different in play style and execution as they are presented now, though, of course, NI isn't the most viable option. Indeed, I think E&E has more side diversity than anything else I've ever played which had any sort of balance.
Air as it is happens to be one of the smoothest and best uses of the unit type in any RTS. It is support. No constructors, significant differences - yet effective. It lends GD the high response time their land units lack in addition to the pure scouting and raiding power URC gains from it.
And, last but not least, making GD into a land-immobile force has many prospective issues in addition to those mentioned, which I may sum up in the words: Effects of terrain deformation.
YAN, your being told to stop by the EE Elite, the people who talk with fang, who beta test release candidates, who play more EE than everyone else put together, who've been here a lot more than you. Respect their experience, and dont anger them by direspecting it. They know what their talking about and you're just posting in this thread for the first time. At least read whats on smoths forum abotu EE before makign another post.
Any sensible person would simply colalte all their stuff into a single document then post that and then after that sort of reaction, they'd go.
If you look at EE's progress you'll find changes are being made and that overall it is unfinished which means you cant realy comment on it.
If you decide to post again, possibly to defend your ideas then its obvious you havent read our replies, and I see no reason why Fang shouldnt ask a mdoerator to simply filter out all future posts about the issue by you and anyone else who tries to respond to it, sow e can get back to making progress.
Any sensible person would simply colalte all their stuff into a single document then post that and then after that sort of reaction, they'd go.
If you look at EE's progress you'll find changes are being made and that overall it is unfinished which means you cant realy comment on it.
If you decide to post again, possibly to defend your ideas then its obvious you havent read our replies, and I see no reason why Fang shouldnt ask a mdoerator to simply filter out all future posts about the issue by you and anyone else who tries to respond to it, sow e can get back to making progress.
-
PauloMorfeo
- Posts: 2004
- Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53
Finally i played some EE and have something to say.
I heard Fang(?) complaining that people say EE has little varyity but can't propose changes. I will refer a little to that.
Here are my issues with EE.
1- It is very hard to distinguish units. All lvl-1 bots look the same. All turrets look the same. All Tanks look the same. Well, kind of. The only ones i can easily destinguish are the builders. But even those i can't easily destinguish from the commander.
2- The varyity of units.
At lvl-1, i have:
- Rocket K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Laser K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Cannon/Flame K-bot/Tank of range ~500
- Artilerry K-bot/Tank of range ~1300
- Radar K-bot/Tank
At lvl-2, i have:
- Rocket K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Laser K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Cannon/Flame K-bot/Tank of range ~500
- Artilerry K-bot/Tank of range >1300
- Radar K-bot/Tank
Just slower and less cost effective (so i've been told)
At lvl-3, i have:
...
Just even more slower and even less cost effective (so i've been told)
Comparing that to oTA, at lvl-1 you have:
- Some EMG units with range of ~200
- Some short laser units with range of 200~300
- Some arcing cannon units with range of 300~550
- Some medium range Rocketeers with range of 500+
But at lvl-2, you have more of the same but, also, loads of diferent new stuff:
- Long range rocket launchers (Merls, etc)
- The sniper with it's long range heavy damage laser
- Builders now have stuff like Big Berthas
- Annihilators
- Etc, etc, etc
3- Commander has no kind of weaponry, making hard to defende against a rush and a small bad moment in the begining.
Anyway, it's just some complaints.
On the other hand, there are other things i especially liked like mo metal making, except in the commander.
I really liked playing EE. It is a game of pushing the oponents with a small set of options, where lines won't break from one moment to the other but, also, not with a slow gameplay. Leads often to times of constant action, since battles often take much time to resolve.
I heard Fang(?) complaining that people say EE has little varyity but can't propose changes. I will refer a little to that.
Here are my issues with EE.
1- It is very hard to distinguish units. All lvl-1 bots look the same. All turrets look the same. All Tanks look the same. Well, kind of. The only ones i can easily destinguish are the builders. But even those i can't easily destinguish from the commander.
2- The varyity of units.
At lvl-1, i have:
- Rocket K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Laser K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Cannon/Flame K-bot/Tank of range ~500
- Artilerry K-bot/Tank of range ~1300
- Radar K-bot/Tank
At lvl-2, i have:
- Rocket K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Laser K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Cannon/Flame K-bot/Tank of range ~500
- Artilerry K-bot/Tank of range >1300
- Radar K-bot/Tank
Just slower and less cost effective (so i've been told)
At lvl-3, i have:
...
Just even more slower and even less cost effective (so i've been told)
Comparing that to oTA, at lvl-1 you have:
- Some EMG units with range of ~200
- Some short laser units with range of 200~300
- Some arcing cannon units with range of 300~550
- Some medium range Rocketeers with range of 500+
But at lvl-2, you have more of the same but, also, loads of diferent new stuff:
- Long range rocket launchers (Merls, etc)
- The sniper with it's long range heavy damage laser
- Builders now have stuff like Big Berthas
- Annihilators
- Etc, etc, etc
3- Commander has no kind of weaponry, making hard to defende against a rush and a small bad moment in the begining.
Anyway, it's just some complaints.
On the other hand, there are other things i especially liked like mo metal making, except in the commander.
I really liked playing EE. It is a game of pushing the oponents with a small set of options, where lines won't break from one moment to the other but, also, not with a slow gameplay. Leads often to times of constant action, since battles often take much time to resolve.
The visual similarity of units is a style decision, and thus not an issue to be discussed. I personally think it makes everything look more fluid, and really rewards paying attention to your units specifics.
Now, I don't disagree that some new sorts of units at each progressive level would be cool, but as it is, everything plays well enough. This is one way to keep L1 viable all game long!
The lack of a Commander's weapon is refreshing.
Now, I don't disagree that some new sorts of units at each progressive level would be cool, but as it is, everything plays well enough. This is one way to keep L1 viable all game long!
The lack of a Commander's weapon is refreshing.
Paul, Im going to address what you said because it is fairly inaccurate
at lvl 1 you have the following equivilant units with these ranges
URC/GD
plasma/cannon 650/700
missile/missile 630/680
flame/laser 400/500
mortar/artillery 1200/1300
ECM/Radar -/685 (the urc version has jamming however)
Scout/Scout -/500 (urc scout is cloaked)
Still at lvl 1 you have 2 more units which i suppose are in the same catagory but are unique to each side
the Ion cannon tank and light stealth plasma mech
Level 2 changes and you have this
URC/GD
plasma/cannon 685/805
missile/missile 675/805
cannon/laser 500/550 (note the GD medium laser tank has 4 lasers and can fire them at seperate targets on occasion)
rocket/bombard 1950/2100 (note the much longer range)
at lvl 2 they also both have AA units, minelayers, and jammers (urc's version is cloaked, gd's version is armed) but then URC can get access to several cloaked versions of its main line units as well as an all terrain cloaked transport that is amphibious, and a few amphibious units, GD gets several amphibious units and a medium ion cannon tank, also note that GD's lvl 2 battle tank has 2 weapons LvL 3 is completely different as well
you have multiple weapons on each unit and urc gets a larger cloaked all terrain transport and a cloaked flame unit, gd gets a tactical nuke launcher and a high powered artillery that fires nuke rounds, and lvl 3 artillery is entirely different, not its ranges:
URC/GD
1750/1875
these artillery are shorter ranged than the lvl 2 artillery by a decent amount and fire much faster than even the lvl 1 artillery but with high inaccuracy making them utterly different units
Also the fact that a unit is slower, has more hitpoints and can not climb terrain as well automatically makes it have a different role in an army..
I dont know who said the lvl 2/3 units are less cost effective because that is bullshit they are just as cost effective and need to be used in a different way, lvl 3 can be overrun by lvl 1 and so can lvl 2 they all need to support eachother and have different roles, they are just not as glaring as the AA units meaning you have to think about it a little be more..
That above statement is intirely inaccurate..2- The varyity of units.
At lvl-1, i have:
- Rocket K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Laser K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Cannon/Flame K-bot/Tank of range ~500
- Artilerry K-bot/Tank of range ~1300
- Radar K-bot/Tank
At lvl-2, i have:
- Rocket K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Laser K-bot/Tank of range ~650
- Cannon/Flame K-bot/Tank of range ~500
- Artilerry K-bot/Tank of range >1300
- Radar K-bot/Tank
Just slower and less cost effective (so i've been told)
At lvl-3, i have:
at lvl 1 you have the following equivilant units with these ranges
URC/GD
plasma/cannon 650/700
missile/missile 630/680
flame/laser 400/500
mortar/artillery 1200/1300
ECM/Radar -/685 (the urc version has jamming however)
Scout/Scout -/500 (urc scout is cloaked)
Still at lvl 1 you have 2 more units which i suppose are in the same catagory but are unique to each side
the Ion cannon tank and light stealth plasma mech
Level 2 changes and you have this
URC/GD
plasma/cannon 685/805
missile/missile 675/805
cannon/laser 500/550 (note the GD medium laser tank has 4 lasers and can fire them at seperate targets on occasion)
rocket/bombard 1950/2100 (note the much longer range)
at lvl 2 they also both have AA units, minelayers, and jammers (urc's version is cloaked, gd's version is armed) but then URC can get access to several cloaked versions of its main line units as well as an all terrain cloaked transport that is amphibious, and a few amphibious units, GD gets several amphibious units and a medium ion cannon tank, also note that GD's lvl 2 battle tank has 2 weapons LvL 3 is completely different as well
you have multiple weapons on each unit and urc gets a larger cloaked all terrain transport and a cloaked flame unit, gd gets a tactical nuke launcher and a high powered artillery that fires nuke rounds, and lvl 3 artillery is entirely different, not its ranges:
URC/GD
1750/1875
these artillery are shorter ranged than the lvl 2 artillery by a decent amount and fire much faster than even the lvl 1 artillery but with high inaccuracy making them utterly different units
Also the fact that a unit is slower, has more hitpoints and can not climb terrain as well automatically makes it have a different role in an army..
I dont know who said the lvl 2/3 units are less cost effective because that is bullshit they are just as cost effective and need to be used in a different way, lvl 3 can be overrun by lvl 1 and so can lvl 2 they all need to support eachother and have different roles, they are just not as glaring as the AA units meaning you have to think about it a little be more..
