Mentor AI

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 31 Aug 2006, 19:00

Hi,
i am not ashamed to comit, that my first spring experience went the newb way, altough i knew OTA.
I started a AI Game, got rushed. The I joined a Game on the Server, got defeated. I was about to run away, when i found that little test single Player Mission inside, that way a save haven for learning.

This Thing is gone, and many new, potential Comunitymembers join now, get bashed or into the Speedmetallrealm, were everything is easy going, even afterwards leaving Spring.

My Suggestion, would be an AI Mentor, maybee a Version of NTAIs, that is on the first Spring StartUp-joinGame, in Controll of the Newbs Units , so that even if the Newb is just looking in the Beginning (what happens) - the AI starts to build a Base. If the Newb wants to do something, he is able to give orders, and they will be fullfilled, no matter what. However, if a borrowed Unit, does not recive Orders from the Newb, for longer than a Minute, it returns under Controll of the AI. This allows Newb to experiment, learn, and have at least a little Sucess, and would at least double the "struggle" Time before the Newb is beeing defeated.

PS: It would also be cool, if there was a button, to turn it off.
This would sucessfully replace a Offline Tutorial, help the Newbs in the Learning Curves upwards and reduce the SM Popularity.

AF - i have one last Cookie, and now it is gone. You can`t take someone something, that is in its stomage. Muhahaha.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 31 Aug 2006, 19:34

To learn, the BEST way, hands down, is to watch replays.

However, that's not very fun

Tobi · Post by **Tobi** » 31 Aug 2006, 19:38

That's very useful for tactics/strategies, it is not useful for learning GUI.

To get used to the GUI some single player (tutorial) missions would be good. I don't think the workaround with an AI would be really smart, if one's motivated to get some tutorial thingie done then it's better IMHO to go for the scripting and implement one or two example/tutorial missions.

AF · Post by AF » 31 Aug 2006, 19:58

add the line globalai=aidll/globalai/ntai.dll; to your player entry in script.txt then feed it to spring, and you will have an NTai running as a Helper/Mentor AI.

The same could be done of AAI however AAI uses JCAI style command checking and thus if you give it orders it'll reissue its orders to the unit and you'll have a tug of war.

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 31 Aug 2006, 20:18

It`s not for me AF. And i could use that.
But a Newb would not be able to, if this option would not be offered by the client.
The Idea is thought to keep a Newb a few Secs longer Alive- i don`t think it is motivating for the beginners , who come out of 12 Units per Fraction Starcraft World into a 200 types per Fraction. This just gives them Time enough to learn, and they would use the GUI, they still comand units, they just return under controll of the AI, after not beeing used over a certain time period. And to have Replays, you ve got to find them, or to stay in whole Games of Professionals as Spectrator. Really nice learning Curve without help.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 31 Aug 2006, 21:25

another option would be to create a demo tutorial - two people in a game just go through and explain the basic commands, GUI, some units, ect. It wouldn't be as good as a proper scripted tutorial, but you could do a decent job with just a dedicated replay.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 31 Aug 2006, 22:11

That's what they did in Arena Wars... Of course the problem would be that replays don't remain compatible between releases, right?

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 31 Aug 2006, 22:20

And Replays have no Entertaining Factor (if not properly comented in Game

) - a Multiplayer Game has and AFs AI could save there day...
Why make all this work, if like AF said, everything is there. And you can`t explain 200 Hundred Units of AA or XTA, even scratching TA on the Surface is a hit on the head for a Normal Starcraft or Warcraft player. Those who really tasted TA - find all other Games poisoned. My inention was to hand them all Options, and let them find out by try and not-error-but-AI-cleaning-up-behind-you.

bamb · Post by **bamb** » 31 Aug 2006, 23:28

The wiki page for using spring was really helpful for me getting up to a comfortable level from the basics! Thanks to the writers!

HAARP · Post by **HAARP** » 01 Sep 2006, 02:19

I don't want to be the evil-doer here, I like the idea of a tutorial AI. But right now, every Spring-player should've played TA and know the units. Why? People who don't own TA aren't basicly allowed to use Spring. (not that I care what other ppl do...)

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 01 Sep 2006, 03:59

the original post isn't about unit descriptions its about the engine's text in general. Things like the endgame stats and other bits of text that as of now are only in english

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 01 Sep 2006, 09:11

HAARP wrote:I don't want to be the evil-doer here, I like the idea of a tutorial AI. But right now, every Spring-player should've played TA and know the units. Why? People who don't own TA aren't basicly allowed to use Spring. (not that I care what other ppl do...)

They can use non-TA mods, if I recall.

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 01 Sep 2006, 09:48

Yeah, but they fail, and the fail fast. That is the Main Problem. If you had ever a Game with Newbs in it - they are of the Map, with the first Pewees coming. If an AI would do there first step, at least that would not happen. It is the Idea of Learning by doing, not by explaining it to them. Same thing goes for Units, what can be better to find out about, then having them Produced for you and then taking them into a Battle to test ?
You can not make a Replay Tutorial for AA, the Newbs would starve to death, during the Tutorial if they only miss the Break-Button Function.

So now after three hours - we finally meet the Krogoth...

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 01 Sep 2006, 09:54

I don't think a Spring tutorial should include the various TA or AA units, that's too specific and takes way too long anyway. What AA could use is a proper manual that describes every unit and its intended purpose so you could know all of them without having to build them in a game.

I also don't think any current AI is good enough to use for teaching newbies.

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 01 Sep 2006, 12:46

NTAIS would keep them Alive at least... and that is whats most important. I think we lose for every Springplayer that gets into the Stuff, one to speedmetall and one into the void, just for fast-first-time frustration. And it wont get better - there will be no new OTA Veterans... let`s solve the Problem, before Supcom or any other lousy Strategygame with only a good Tutorial, solves it for us.

AF · Post by AF » 01 Sep 2006, 14:25

another fix is to comshare with an AI.

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 01 Sep 2006, 14:49

Um... we could make a video, and do a voice-over, and then put it up on FilePlanet...

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 01 Sep 2006, 15:42

Or Youtube. No annoying queues that way.

HAARP · Post by **HAARP** » 01 Sep 2006, 15:56

No, not Fileplanet. No noob will want to wait 5 hours just to get a tutorial
And no Youtube either. Noone would be able to tell the difference between a flea and a krogoth with youtube's quality

Guessmyname · Post by **Guessmyname** » 01 Sep 2006, 19:21

Ask nicely and get it put up on FileUniverse is my suggestion

Spring RTS Engine

Mentor AI

Mentor AI