Absolute Annihilation 2.11

[Egarwaen]

Edit: and again. Counter the arguments, lay up your own, and stop saying "LOL IT'S BALANCED!!!"

I have. Repeatedly. You, Forboding, and Lathan have totally ignored them. And you've yet to specify:

1) What the problem is you're trying to solve.

2) How your solution resolves it.

[Kixxe]

Edit: and again. Counter the arguments, lay up your own, and stop saying "LOL IT'S BALANCED!!!"

I have. Repeatedly. You, Forboding, and Lathan have totally ignored them. And you've yet to specify:

1) What the problem is you're trying to solve.

2) How your solution resolves it.

You see a solution in search of a problem, while i see a small tweak and a step in the right direction.

Here, have another one. If the "solutions" we offer is implented, that would be bad because?

[Egarwaen]

Here, have another one. If the "solutions" we offer is implented, that would be bad because?

I've explained that in detail. But since you don't seem interested in reading any post for longer than about 5 seconds, how's this for an explanation?

Because you've yet to specify the problem you're trying to solve.

You want people to consider your changes? Specify the problem. Demonstrate that it exists in AA on normal maps at skilled levels of play. Propose a solution that directly addresses the problem.

If there's no problem, why does anything need to change?

[Machiosabre]

I think logically arguments for the change have to come first, you can't just say all defences are to strong without explaining why.

[KDR_11k]

He did bring a counter argument: Defenses are weak enough as-is, weakening them further wouldn't make sense.

If the power and cost decrease was proportional it would do nothing about porcing except increase the number of turrets making up the defence. All other options would make defenses more or less cost effective, which would either increase porcing or make defenses completely useless.

Having defenses cost more means their firepower is more concentrated instead of spread out which means there are more weak spots in a defense line. Three turrets spread over a base perimeter would leave more openings than six weaker turrets. Pricier turrets also means more investment before the firepower goes online, building two turrets in one spot means the first will be online in half the time it takes to pull up a single turret that's twice as strong and costy.

[Egarwaen]

He did bring a counter argument: Defenses are weak enough as-is, weakening them further wouldn't make sense.

More specifically:

1) Porcing in AA on normal maps is more related to not being able to use mobile units well than anything to do with the defensive structures themselves.

2) Porcing on maps designed with tight chokepoints or high starting metal concentrations (Speedmetal, Altored Divide) is inevitable, and is more evidence of problems with those maps than with AA.

3) Porcing is minimal to nonexistant at skilled levels of play. Porcing against an equal-skill player will get you killed. Porcing against a higher-skill player will get you killed quickly.

[Kixxe]

If there's no problem, why does anything need to change?

Using that logic, the W-bubble should be mass produced and be the only car sold.

I mean, i don't see any direct PROBLEMS with the W-bubble. Sure, maybe it's not as "good" as a Ferrari, but hey, it has no problems, therefore no change.
Or? Want a better car? or a better mod?
(it's a metafor, i know it may have problems >.>)

Also, as i said before. It's not a problem, so it can't be fixed. It can be improved however, since it's not perfect.

oh, i found your argument you posted. Sorry, lotsa posts, very fast.

Because most defenses are already barely worth building against an equally-skilled player, and a further nerf would drop them into early EE levels of total uselessness?

We are not talking about a "nerf" here. Cheaper defences would make defence building esayer. Then we balance acordingly. as the well formulated post above says:

Three turrets spread over a base perimeter would leave more openings than six weaker turrets.

He did bring a counter argument: Defenses are weak enough as-is, weakening them further wouldn't make sense.

If the power and cost decrease was proportional it would do nothing about porcing except increase the number of turrets making up the defence. All other options would make defenses more or less cost effective, which would either increase porcing or make defenses completely useless.

Having defenses cost more means their firepower is more concentrated instead of spread out which means there are more weak spots in a defense line. Three turrets spread over a base perimeter would leave more openings than six weaker turrets. Pricier turrets also means more investment before the firepower goes online, building two turrets in one spot means the first will be online in half the time it takes to pull up a single turret that's twice as strong and costy.

NOW WHERE USING OUR HEADS!

See? you thougth of acully implenting this and pulled out cons! this is how a dicussion is born, you can learn from this guy! :D

oh right, countering of arguments.


Well, defences would be more an investment, but you still have a harder time setting up defences close to enemy. Cheaper but weaker defences would mean that they're fast and esay to set-up and in that way enqourage exspansion. and since

3) Porcing is minimal to nonexistant at skilled levels of play. Porcing against an equal-skill player will get you killed. Porcing against a higher-skill player will get you killed quickly.

, means that it would't make the non exsistant porcing problem worse.

stuff

1. Yea...
2. Yea...
3. Why even write 1 and 2 when 3 says it's not a problem?

[Acidd_UK]

WHY CAN'T WE ALL BE FRIENDS?

[Machiosabre]

Right, but if porcing isn't a problem, and expansion is the only other option, why encourage expansion?
What's the point of this change really?

[Kixxe]

Right, but if porcing isn't a problem, and expansion is the only other option, why encourage expansion?
What's the point of this change really?

Esayer to set up outposts in enemy territory? More lazers = coolness? :O

Edit: Anyway, we are drifinging away from some of the other ideas here.

1. Removing autoheal. http://www.unknown-files.net/browse.php?dlid=1545 try it before you say anything.

2. Making com splode decimate rubble. It would look cooler if everything near the com was vaporised instead of now where is a big pile of metal on the ground after the com. (not talking about it's corpse>.>)

3. Making level 3 more uniqe. Im not to sure about this anymore, but really, should arm have a super unit like that? and also, why are there so many almost direct copies with diffrent weapons in level 3?

[Machiosabre]

Wouldn't being able to make defences faster just increase rushing across the map at start game and severely hurt the chances of any lategame comeback?

just saw that edit,
man you missed out on the conversation about those points completely kixxe, you shouldve said something we were already talking about the next thing.

1. I don't mind the removal of autoheal, could go either way.

2. comm explosion does destroy other wrecks :- It'll seem less since the explosion got made smaller.

3. lvl3 units are very different from eachother, with the exeption of the orcone and krogoth, I don't believe either of them is really necesarry but it's more of a cool unit to be in the game.

[Egarwaen]

I mean, i don't see any direct PROBLEMS with the W-bubble. Sure, maybe it's not as "good" as a Ferrari, but hey, it has no problems, therefore no change.
Or? Want a better car? or a better mod?

If there's something you can do to make it better, there's a problem. Solutions need to address problems or shortcomings, not just be random attempts to "improve" gameplay.

Well, defences would be more an investment, but you still have a harder time setting up defences close to enemy. Cheaper but weaker defences would mean that they're fast and esay to set-up and in that way enqourage exspansion.

Again, watch some replays of skilled players. It's pretty common to see their Commanders throwing up small expansions with a few LLTs, then adding more defences when and where they're needed or as their economy allows for it. You don't need to "encourage" expansion any more. It's already vital to victory.

In case you didn't notice, AA's defences come in a range of costs. Early on, LLTs are cheap and spammable, and you've got Beamers/HLLTs and HLTs for main defence. As your economy grows, formerly "expensive" defences move into the "cheap and spammable" category.

Scaling defences down or up would not fundamentally alter the gameplay. You'd just see two or three buildings where there's one now. Though you would see more porcing and reliance on plasma cannons instead of mobile units to attack. (Since the plasma cannon's splash damage lets it wipe out the cardboard defensive structures very quickly)

1. Removing autoheal. http://www.unknown-files.net/browse.php?dlid=1545 try it before you say anything.

With the exception of the 2 or 3 units with combat auto-heal, it has little to no impact on gameplay.

2. Making com splode decimate rubble. It would look cooler if everything near the com was vaporised instead of now where is a big pile of metal on the ground after the com. (not talking about it's corpse>.>)

Purely cosmetic, probably related to the Commander explosion nerf from a few versions back. Though I could've sworn that most things were vaporised.

3. Making level 3 more uniqe. Im not to sure about this anymore, but really, should arm have a super unit like that? and also, why are there so many almost direct copies with diffrent weapons in level 3?

There aren't many direct copies. (By that, I assume you mean like the PeeWee/AK?) The only ones I can think of are the mobile LRPCs and the Orcone/Krogoth. And the Bantha, but it's kind of boring and I wouldn't mind seeing it swapped for something more interesting. The other L3 units actually fill very different roles.

[jellyman]

AA balance is absolutely wonderfull if you are an elite player playing against another elite player 1 v2 1. I've watched some of the replays, and the play is beautiful.

But the majority of AA is played between average players. And 4 vs 4. And I think there are some major balance issues at this level. Consider the annihilator. Several of these with back up make an absolute nightmare porc to bust. Unless you are an expert player who knows how to counter it. But this isn't even an issue for an expert, as in expert play, anyone trying this would be overwhelmed long before they get multiple annis up.

But for games with average players and 4 vs 4, this type of thing happens a lot. Guardian wars. Anni walls. Krog invasions. Brawler swarms. Bertha barrages. Nukes. These are some of the strategies that seem to dominate typical play.

And shields - totally pointless. If we made them stronger they would promote porcing. As they are now they simply lure would be porcers into making a bad investment.

Play balance for the average game in the lobby is a totally different beast to the play balance that gets argued so vehemently for in this forum.

Another funny thing - a lot of spirited argument of late, but I get the feeling that Caydr is happy with most of how this mod works at the moment, except for water balance. So is there really a point in getting so worked up about it all I wonder.

[Min3mat]

3) Porcing is minimal to nonexistant at skilled levels of play. Porcing against an equal-skill player will get you killed. Porcing against a higher-skill player will get you killed quickly.

Edgarwaen I'd like you to know i got your back on most stuff. But that is ridicolous, porcing midgame is almost essential
e: oh and at jelli man, SeLF PwnT lOL O.o
seriously, you said that AA is balanced for 1v1 / 2v2 and so it is and so it should be

[Hellspawn]

3) Porcing is minimal to nonexistant at skilled levels of play. Porcing against an equal-skill player will get you killed. Porcing against a higher-skill player will get you killed quickly.

Edgarwaen I'd like you to know i got your back on most stuff. But that is ridicolous, porcing midgame is almost essential

More like late game, when you have hordes of lvl 2 crawling and enough metal. But you definatly need a lot of unit support aswell.

[Forboding Angel]

Ok, here is something that really doesn't make sense...

As the counter (rangewise) the guy above mentions other defence turrets... Doesn't that strike anyone as a "huh?"

Guys, understand this. You have main defences at lv1. That is not a good thing. Main defences at level 1 mean that you can just throw up a ton of em and be safe from level 1, then tech up, throw about 5 anni's in there and you're set.

How about this. HLT, Guardian, become level 1 defence structures that are geared towards stopping lv1 attakcs as opposed to lv1 defences that are also great for stopping lv2.

[Egarwaen]

As the counter (rangewise) the guy above mentions other defence turrets... Doesn't that strike anyone as a "huh?"

Stationary artillery as a counter for Doomsday Machines. Stationary long-range artillery's always been part of TA's gameplay.

How about this. HLT, Guardian, become level 1 defence structures that are geared towards stopping lv1 attakcs as opposed to lv1 defences that are also great for stopping lv2.

HLTs and Guardians suck at stopping L2 unless they're spammed, and if you let your enemy spam them, you're doing something wrong at L1. A handful of Zeuses or Pyros (5-10) will tear through one or two HLTs, even if the HLTs have the high ground. L1 vehicles can also be effective, depending on circumstance. Or L1 bombers/gunships. (Remember: Air plants are hella cheap)

Edgarwaen I'd like you to know i got your back on most stuff. But that is ridicolous, porcing midgame is almost essential

I meant porcing as an entire strategy. I know there's a defensive midgame phase in most battles (though not all - the Hellspawn V Jazz replay didn't seem to have much of one), but it's generally very short isn't it? And you still get raiding action, probing defences, etc?

[BigSteve]

Just to put my oar in - I think AA is great as it is at the moment.The only thing that needs a major overhaul is the naval warfare imho , and Cadyr has said he's looking it this. Pll the want to radically change AA should just make their own mod and then see if they can get ppl to play it...

QFAT


(absolute truth)

[Forboding Angel]

Doesn't anyone see the midgame mandatory porcing as an issue? How about the fact that going vehicles at first is pretty much suicide (At least for core)?

[Egarwaen]

Doesn't anyone see the midgame mandatory porcing as an issue? How about the fact that going vehicles at first is pretty much suicide (At least for core)?

See Hellspawn V Jazz from the "Replay of the Week" thread. They both played Core and went vehicles first. Hellspawn eventually got a KBot lab and Airbase (I think the lack of diversification was one reason why Jazz lost), but the game was still very vehicle-centric.

And the midgame porcing is kind of annoying, but I think it's more directly related to the L1-L2 transition cost. And that seems to happen because the game hits a point where continued attacks with L1 units is a waste of time. Not necessarily because of defensive structures, but because you've both got so much general massing going on that hitting the core of your enemy's base with a strike is impossible.