Zero Tolerance FF Thread!!

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 23 Jul 2006, 12:23

Day wrote:although i honestly dont expect anybody to read through our gibberish

Summary. >_<

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 23 Jul 2006, 12:38

Das Bruce wrote:
Day wrote:although i honestly dont expect anybody to read through our gibberish
Summary. >_<

I read it all. Essentially they're quibbling over t2, economics... Min3Mat wants to steal the "battleangel" for esentially every fix, and... well, they touched on general rebalance for t1.

There are some counter-talk and weapon class alteration mentions.

They started with Optimus' FF 1.18, as the earlier ones are almost impossible to run, as I discovered myself.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 23 Jul 2006, 14:33

Jesus! Can't you just give us a quick summary?

I've been messing around with an Epic version of FF.

I've scaled down all the models and ranges by 1/2 now, just changing the footprint sizes.

Thanks to Deci for showing people this can be easily done. =P

EDIT: Yes, i also think some of the Arm ships look wrong.

Core is about right, that horrible dark camo texture just needs replacing.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 23 Jul 2006, 14:55

Day: Low Fat is fixed now.

Total Commander? Pfft. Real men use notepad. and/or excel macros.

I'd suggest that the early versions could be fixed rather easily, its just a matter of finding the error. Probably something weird in the modinfo or sidedata.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 23 Jul 2006, 15:43

Some random ideas I got when reading your log there (though I stopped when you used MSN because that was a pain to read):

- Tech ressource? The Earth 2160 Rebalancing mod turned one of your two ressources into a tech ressource you didn't need for the standard units and buildings, only for research and high tech stuff. You could do that with energy, have the T1 economy require none of that and only require it at T2 or higher.

- Looooow energy output? Something like requiring 50E per shot for almost all weapons and having each solar give ~10E (probably too extreme values), for example so you might need to withdraw from battle for some time to refill your energy if you want to keep firing at full rate (where depletion and replentishment would take several seconds each, maybe even minutes). This idea would require players to not be able to satisfy the energy demands of their army even in the late game (provided they aren't using a T2 army when they are T3 overall). Would also allow strategies like feeding cannon fodder to the enemy porc line to deplete its ammo before you send in the big hitters. In turn energy costs would of course be lower, a normal energy economy should be able to cover construction but not battle. Low energy input/output is necessary to make storage work better.

Eh, neither will probably fit into what you're making but maybe someone will find them interesting.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 23 Jul 2006, 16:42

Since I've yet to get a reply for this, I'm going to throw it out one more time:

How about making the different ship "types" (fighter, warship, ship-of-the-line) "tech lines" instead of "tech levels", analagous to vehicles, kbots, and air in AA? Each line would (like those three) be equally "good" in different situations, and higher "tech levels" within a line would be more powerful/specialized versions of those units.

It would require some remodelling, but it sounds like Smoth is planning to do some of that anyway.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 23 Jul 2006, 16:43

Mutators ftw, KDR_11k.

Speaking of mutators - http://aun.byethost13.com/Spring/FFTiny%20mutator.sd7

My first test version of the FFTiny 1.18 mutator! All ranges, model sizes and footprints should be halved.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 23 Jul 2006, 16:45

Egarwaen wrote:Since I've yet to get a reply for this, I'm going to throw it out one more time:

How about making the different ship "types" (fighter, warship, ship-of-the-line) "tech lines" instead of "tech levels", analagous to vehicles, kbots, and air in AA? Each line would (like those three) be equally "good" in different situations, and higher "tech levels" within a line would be more powerful/specialized versions of those units.

It would require some remodelling, but it sounds like Smoth is planning to do some of that anyway.

Sorry for the double post...

Interesting idea, 9+ factories though? Would all of the factories have the same constructors?

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 23 Jul 2006, 16:54

Egarwaen wrote:Since I've yet to get a reply for this, I'm going to throw it out one more time:

How about making the different ship "types" (fighter, warship, ship-of-the-line) "tech lines" instead of "tech levels", analagous to vehicles, kbots, and air in AA? Each line would (like those three) be equally "good" in different situations, and higher "tech levels" within a line would be more powerful/specialized versions of those units.

It would require some remodelling, but it sounds like Smoth is planning to do some of that anyway.

the point is, that you dont have enough different classes in FF. Actually there are fighters and ships, in AA you have air, water, kbots and vehicles all with different moving abilities. This idea is not new, i had such an idea long ago, but i came to the conclusion, that I cant do it because of the similarities of the units.
This is also the reason why i put the rock paper scissor system in - to make ships more different.

The idea of KDR sounds not bad, but would need a lot of changes and i guess it would need a month to get this playable. Also the problem with the metal will still be present. Having units which cost a lot in lvl 1 will not be build untill the eco reaches the level for the unit (even if its a "cheap version" like a small destroyer) it is just not payable.
So this idea gets a "nice idea - but needs a better (detailed) concept" before anyone can realise it. But like i said, i m not able to wrk on it for some time.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 23 Jul 2006, 16:55

Aun wrote:Interesting idea, 9+ factories though? Would all of the factories have the same constructors?

Hm. Good question. I'm also not sure if there'd be enough variety, seeing as there's only one movement type.

Perhaps one factory per "level" with a selection of ships of different "types" available, encouraging mixed fleets? There's three or four "types", depending on how you want to balance things: fighters (interceptors and bombers), warships (corvettes, frigates, destroyers), ships-of-the-line (battleships, cruisers, battlecruisers, etc), and possibly ODS units.

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:01

Interesting Idea Egarwean.. but hmm I'm not sure that would flow well with the capship line of thinking (the big,powerful ships should be the last in the line absolutly) but maybe a hybrid of the two..

Light Fighter Bay
______l__________\
______l___________\
Fighter Bay______Corrvette/Frigate Bay
____l_______________l
____l_______________l
Elite Fighter Bay <---Destroyer Dock
__________________l
__________________l
_______________Flagship Dock

(The arrows and line represent what the yard's constructor can build)

This way the cap ships are technicly at the top, but we have an elite fighter branch for heavy bombers and starfighters as well.

E: seperated destroyers from flagships. Destroyers could including some of the lighter cruisers and comunication ships as well, and put things like the dreadnaught and batttleship in the Flagship Dock (esstianly like a gantry from TA?)

If people like this setup I can draw up something more detailed

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:26

Hunter0000 wrote:I'm not sure that would flow well with the capship line of thinking (the big,powerful ships should be the last in the line absolutly)

Why? One of the reasons people play games like this is to have fun with great big ships, so it doesn't make sense to make them an end-game super-unit. (IE, rarely if ever seen in any competitive game) The biggest, most powerful ships should be the last in the line, but you should be able get other big ships before then.

Capships should be "balanced" with other "lines" of units. Basically, each "line" of units should naturally have advantages and disadvantages, just like air/kbots/vehicles (theoretically) do in AA. As you go up in "tech level", the line gets better at its advantages. So late-game fighters will be faster and more nimble, late-game capships will be tougher and more powerful, late-game ships will have better support...

It's a shame we can't do directional damage modifiers, or one could make their lack of maneuverability a real disadvantage for capships by giving units a bonus for firing up their engines. As-is, I suppose you'd have to make it so most of their weapons can only fire forward or something...

Basically, here's a possible setup:

Fighters: Fast, nimble, decent LoS, weak armor and weapons. Cheap. Basically, a swarm unit. 6 should be roughly equal to a same-tier "support ship" and about the same cost.

Support Ship: Corvettes, destroyers, frigates, etc. Moderate speed, maneuverability, armor, weapons, and cost. A "middle of the road" unit. 3 should be roughly equal to a same-tier capital ship and about the same cost. They should have "support abilities" - anti-missile weapons, jamming, shields, radar, AoE weapons, that kind of thing.

Capital Ship: Cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, etc. Slow and clumsy, but very tough, powerful, and expensive. A "heavy tank" unit, but vulnerable without support.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:35

Optimus Prime wrote:Also the problem with the metal will still be present. Having units which cost a lot in lvl 1 will not be build untill the eco reaches the level for the unit (even if its a "cheap version" like a small destroyer) it is just not payable.

Well, noone's forcing the mod to have these units be so expensive that you can't afford them easily in T1. You could e.g. have a light destroyer cost as much as five fighters and be about as effective (better in some situations, worse in others).

As for the production lines, how about fighters, destroyers and cruisers? Destroyers are faster but weaker (kinda like Kbots) and cruisers are less maneuvrable but stronger with a balancing that doesn't require you to mix cruisers and destroyers (so you'll be able to choose which you prefer, OTOH that's also what the Arm/Core choice is for...)?

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:37

Egarwaen wrote:Capships should be "balanced" with other "lines" of units.

Cost for cost they should be. Bombers should maul undefended capships in similar costs.

But IMO if cap ships are buildable right away with tech 1 resources it really takes away from their impressivness. The reason fighters are unimpressive is because they are very common and can be built from the start and you see them all game. IMHO there should really never be a point where you see a capital ship and it doesnt imdiantly grab your attention as a serious problem. I think it would be best if destroyers and elite fighters (heavy bombers and starfighters) became the staple units once tech 2(I would consider the light fighters tech 0) has arrived that are very common, and have things like hevay cruisers and battships be things that you bring out to lead an attack, supported by many destroyers ect...

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:44

Bombers should maul undefended capships in similar costs.

Not even similar cost, the bomber attack group should be much cheaper than the capitals it can destroy (unless those are flyswatters, er, anti-fighter ships). Otherwise, if two armies of similar cost collide and the enemy has only capital ships he wouldn't be at a disadvantage since you'd have to make your entire force consist of bombers to reap a tactical advantage. A force facing the correct counter should always take much heavier losses cost-wise so monocultural attack forces are actually a disadvantage. Otherwise you could just spam one unit and the worst that could happen is a draw cost-wise.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:45

Hunter0000 wrote:Cost for cost they should be. Bombers should maul undefended capships in similar costs.

See my post - I edited it and elaborated a bit.

But IMO if cap ships are buildable right away with tech 1 resources it really takes away from their impressivness. The reason fighters are unimpressive is because they are very common and can be built from the start and you see them all game. IMHO there should really never be a point where you see a capital ship and it doesnt imdiantly grab your attention as a serious problem.

Again, see my post. This is still possible - a cap ship can be a serious problem for its tier. Make it an "oh shit" unit, but defeatable if not properly supported.

IE, as a really simple example, capital ships could have a big "dead zone" in their weapons. Combined with their lack of maneuverability, this would let fighters maul them despite their heavy armor. However, a T1 capital ship with support should pose a major problem for T1 defences. Basically, make them the "focus" of "major battles".

Fighters aren't unimpressive because they show up early, they're unimpressive because they're small and wimpy. Having big ships available early on doesn't make them any less impressive, especially if they get bigger and badder as tech levels progress. (IE, tech level 1 cruiser = armored death machine with big guns. Tech level 3 battleship = massive armored death machine with lots of big guns)

Also, I think there should probably be only one factory per level, or maybe two. Make it enclosed if necessary, so the scale thing isn't a problem.

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:51

@ KDR You misunderstand. I use the word maul to describe how a bomber force of equal cost should utterly destroy a capship-only force and take minimal losses. IE. I agree with you don't read so closly hehe

@Egar I think we agree more than your realise. You are disregarding the corvette and frigate classes and if you include those as the Tech 1 'cap ships' then we are saying almost the same thing. Maybe I should just remove the 'light fighters' from my representation. Would that improve it?

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:54

Egarwaen pretty much sum's up my opinions on how the game should be balanced with the whole fighter/bomber/cappy ships and such.

But I have two questions. Will the fighter use a gunship movement type thing, or a regular old fighter thing? Second question being: Shields. What place will they have in this mod, if at all?

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:57

Hunter0000 wrote:@Edgar I think we agree more than your realise. You are disregarding the corvette and frigate classes and if you include those as the Tech 1 'cap ships' then we are saying almost the same thing. Maybe I should just remove the 'light fighters' from my representation. Would that improve it?

Read my original post - I'm saying that each tier should have three kinds of units: fighters, "support ships", and capital ships. I've got the corvette and frigate classes in there already.

I'm suggesting something like this:

T1: T1 Fighters, a couple support ships (radar/jammer?), Cruiser (light capship)
T2: T2 Fighters, a couple support ships (anti-missile? bigger radar/jammer?), Battlecruiser (medium capship)
T3: T3 Fighters, a couple support ships (shield?), Battleship (biggest capship)

Ideally, one would also have the E&E arrangement where TLs don't become obsolete, but work to support each other.

Zoombie wrote:But I have two questions. Will the fighter use a gunship movement type thing, or a regular old fighter thing? Second question being: Shields. What place will they have in this mod, if at all?

I think they should be something offered by a support ship, like the old frigates in Homeworld. How exactly they should be balanced, I'm not quite sure.

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 23 Jul 2006, 18:59

Zoombie wrote:Will the fighter use a gunship movement type thing, or a regular old fighter thing?

Here is my opinion about the whole movement type thing with fighters.

Standard interceptors should use the normal fighter behavior.
Assault fighters (good against both larger ships and buildings) should act as ginships
Anti-ship bombers should act as fighters but their projectiles should be slow and effective only against (large) ships
Anti-Building bombers should be standard line-bombers ala TA.

Shields.. hmm dunno how it would fit in but worth exploring.

Spring RTS Engine

Zero Tolerance FF Thread!!