Hi,
Info:
Link to Dev site
Dev log implementing this in settings
Wiki page about this
Wanted to raise the drawing-units-as-icons issue here. Are any mods using this atm? IMHO think this is great, and should be used!
Drawing units as icons
Moderator: Moderators
Drawing units as icons
Last edited by BvDorp on 18 Jul 2006, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
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colorblind
- Spring Developer
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
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- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
***EDIT: No need to read this somewhat long post, it was a misunderstanding created through an oversight by myself. Just keeping it for continuity***
There's something we need to be careful of here. In SupCom, units are unknown dots on radar until they are spotted visually by something.
If units simply have custom radar dots, then you are looking at a situation where radar effectively gives you LOS over a region. Not exact LOS, as radar is somewhat inaccurate for being fired upon (without a TF), and you can't tell exactly what the units are. But consider how powerful an advanced radar becomes, as it gives you a direct peek into your enemies base, without having to risk any scouts, letting you know exactly what are buildings, what are vehicles, kbots, super units (whatever the mod maker has balanced for) etc.
For this reason, in Star Wars Spring, we would only be able to differentiate between aircraft and ground units using this, because otherwise we would be giving away too much information (especially when different classes are so decisive in SWS, such as infantry spoofing to make your army look bigger then it is, or going air secretly to sneak up some bombers while the enemy doesn't expect them, and so hasn't any anti-air, etc).
Fog of war is essential in games to ensure that one player doesn't know what the other player is doing. Many, many times I have been in games where I might have won had I had full LOS and known what to do, where to strike, etc. But I didn't win; and it was entirely my fault, because I had inadequate scouting, and my enemy's good play for keeping his weaknesses hidden. Imagine if you could pinpoint the enemy commander by just checking your radar!
Also, this (combined with the full-map-zoomout) is evidently the first step towards getting Supreme-Commander-style transitions when we zoom out completely. I would love to have this for SWS, so that the player can differentiate between the classes of HIS units at full zoom-out. But I don't want him to be able to differentiate between the enemy's units - unless of course he has first achieved visual contact with that target, in which case I don't mind if he can now see what class that unit is on his radar.
I realise this might seem mod-specific, but I think my criticisms are generally applicable to the vast majority of mods.
So basically, amidst my words of caution, I think the following would help to ammend the situation:
[Note that this is intended to be optional dependent on the mods, so that a mod can use the currently planned system, if they wanted]
Units are given a "generic" radar tag (like what we have now - but the generic tag would be moddable, so that we can, say, give the Imps an Imperial logo instead of a circle), which they receive when they are detected by radar. If you get direct visual contact on a unit, and that unit then travels outside your LOS, you are then able to see a customised unit-class radar signature (like an "infantry" or "vehicle" radar dot, etc).
There's something we need to be careful of here. In SupCom, units are unknown dots on radar until they are spotted visually by something.
If units simply have custom radar dots, then you are looking at a situation where radar effectively gives you LOS over a region. Not exact LOS, as radar is somewhat inaccurate for being fired upon (without a TF), and you can't tell exactly what the units are. But consider how powerful an advanced radar becomes, as it gives you a direct peek into your enemies base, without having to risk any scouts, letting you know exactly what are buildings, what are vehicles, kbots, super units (whatever the mod maker has balanced for) etc.
For this reason, in Star Wars Spring, we would only be able to differentiate between aircraft and ground units using this, because otherwise we would be giving away too much information (especially when different classes are so decisive in SWS, such as infantry spoofing to make your army look bigger then it is, or going air secretly to sneak up some bombers while the enemy doesn't expect them, and so hasn't any anti-air, etc).
Fog of war is essential in games to ensure that one player doesn't know what the other player is doing. Many, many times I have been in games where I might have won had I had full LOS and known what to do, where to strike, etc. But I didn't win; and it was entirely my fault, because I had inadequate scouting, and my enemy's good play for keeping his weaknesses hidden. Imagine if you could pinpoint the enemy commander by just checking your radar!
Also, this (combined with the full-map-zoomout) is evidently the first step towards getting Supreme-Commander-style transitions when we zoom out completely. I would love to have this for SWS, so that the player can differentiate between the classes of HIS units at full zoom-out. But I don't want him to be able to differentiate between the enemy's units - unless of course he has first achieved visual contact with that target, in which case I don't mind if he can now see what class that unit is on his radar.
I realise this might seem mod-specific, but I think my criticisms are generally applicable to the vast majority of mods.
So basically, amidst my words of caution, I think the following would help to ammend the situation:
[Note that this is intended to be optional dependent on the mods, so that a mod can use the currently planned system, if they wanted]
Units are given a "generic" radar tag (like what we have now - but the generic tag would be moddable, so that we can, say, give the Imps an Imperial logo instead of a circle), which they receive when they are detected by radar. If you get direct visual contact on a unit, and that unit then travels outside your LOS, you are then able to see a customised unit-class radar signature (like an "infantry" or "vehicle" radar dot, etc).
Last edited by Warlord Zsinj on 19 Jul 2006, 14:50, edited 2 times in total.
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colorblind
- Spring Developer
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- Joined: 14 Mar 2005, 12:32
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Ah, my apologies.
But, could you at all clarify that, as it is a little vague.
If a unit enters your line of sight, and then exits it, is it now identified with the specific radar signature, or the generic radar signature?
Because presumably, a unit within my line of sight wouldn't have a radar dot at all, unless of course I have zoomed out to a point where the radar dots replace the units...
But, could you at all clarify that, as it is a little vague.
If a unit enters your line of sight, and then exits it, is it now identified with the specific radar signature, or the generic radar signature?
Because presumably, a unit within my line of sight wouldn't have a radar dot at all, unless of course I have zoomed out to a point where the radar dots replace the units...
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colorblind
- Spring Developer
- Posts: 374
- Joined: 14 Mar 2005, 12:32
Ok, here's how it will work in the next version:
When zoomed out to a certain (user configurable) distance, all units become icons. The units that are within your LOS will then be displayed by their own particular (mod defined) icons, whereas enemy units outside your LOS but within your radar range will be displayed by the default radar icon (which happens to be the same as the default icon).
When you zoom in again, icons within your LOS wil become units again, but outside your LOS and within radar range they remain standard radar icons.
Is that clear enough?
When zoomed out to a certain (user configurable) distance, all units become icons. The units that are within your LOS will then be displayed by their own particular (mod defined) icons, whereas enemy units outside your LOS but within your radar range will be displayed by the default radar icon (which happens to be the same as the default icon).
When you zoom in again, icons within your LOS wil become units again, but outside your LOS and within radar range they remain standard radar icons.
Is that clear enough?
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TechnoTone
- Posts: 165
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Yes, thanks for the clarification, Colourblind. And again, sorry for missing that rather important piece of information.
With that being cleared up, I think it would be nice for enemy units that are outside LOS, but inside radar range to be given these more detailed icons, under certain conditions.
I've gone over these in more detail in This thread regarding a more advanced radar system.
Basically:
1) When a unit comes into LOS, and then moves out of LOS, but remains under radar range, it would be nice for that unit to remain as an "identified radar signature", meaning that you see the custom 'tank' or 'kbot' or 'infantry' signature instead of the generic dot.' Supreme Commander does this, and I think it adds quite a bit to gameplay, while retaining realism. It means scouting is far more effective, too.
2) Using the advanced radar system I recommended in the thread linked too above, it would be nice if certain radars could detect enemy unit classes, not just their presence, as if you had LOS on the enemy.
This is useful for:
- Allows modders to create special advanced radars which allow players to see what unit classes the units are using, rather then just their position. Interesting strategies between a "large range" advanced radar and a "short range, specific" advanced radar.
- Allows 1944 and other mods to implement a realistic line of sight system, whereby every unit has a radar, which corresponds to it's maximum line of sight. At this point, the unit is able to make out the unit, but not specifically. Thus, the unit is identified with a custom radar dot, indicating "tank" or "infantry", etc. Then, once the unit moves into the actual LOS range of the unit, it is firmly identified.
With that being cleared up, I think it would be nice for enemy units that are outside LOS, but inside radar range to be given these more detailed icons, under certain conditions.
I've gone over these in more detail in This thread regarding a more advanced radar system.
Basically:
1) When a unit comes into LOS, and then moves out of LOS, but remains under radar range, it would be nice for that unit to remain as an "identified radar signature", meaning that you see the custom 'tank' or 'kbot' or 'infantry' signature instead of the generic dot.' Supreme Commander does this, and I think it adds quite a bit to gameplay, while retaining realism. It means scouting is far more effective, too.
2) Using the advanced radar system I recommended in the thread linked too above, it would be nice if certain radars could detect enemy unit classes, not just their presence, as if you had LOS on the enemy.
This is useful for:
- Allows modders to create special advanced radars which allow players to see what unit classes the units are using, rather then just their position. Interesting strategies between a "large range" advanced radar and a "short range, specific" advanced radar.
- Allows 1944 and other mods to implement a realistic line of sight system, whereby every unit has a radar, which corresponds to it's maximum line of sight. At this point, the unit is able to make out the unit, but not specifically. Thus, the unit is identified with a custom radar dot, indicating "tank" or "infantry", etc. Then, once the unit moves into the actual LOS range of the unit, it is firmly identified.
