Absolute Annihilation 2.11

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 18 Jul 2006, 20:10

Perhaps some people would prefer their attack force to consist of a few attack units as well?

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 18 Jul 2006, 20:12

KDR_11k wrote:Perhaps some people would prefer their attack force to consist of a few attack units as well?

Because Jethros and L1 fighters are so unbelievably expensive.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 18 Jul 2006, 20:32

Egarwaen wrote:
KDR_11k wrote:Perhaps some people would prefer their attack force to consist of a few attack units as well?
Because Jethros and L1 fighters are so unbelievably expensive.

L1 fighters are useless anywhere near mercuries, jethro's die to brawlies at a 4 jethro to 1 brawlie ratio.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 18 Jul 2006, 20:55

SwiftSpear wrote:L1 fighters are useless anywhere near mercuries, jethro's die to brawlies at a 4 jethro to 1 brawlie ratio.

1) This is before Mercuries pop up. By the time your enemy has Mecuries up, you should be able to use Hawks/Vamps, which LRMTs are largely useless against until they've already done their damage. If your opponent has Mercuries and a massive Brawler swarm before you have L2 air, you've done something wrong.

2) Jethros actually win against Brawlers in a 2:1 ratio. Tests were run several versions ago and there have been no significant changes to either unit since then. This scales in favour of the Jethros, as Brawlers chain-explode.

3) Caydr's said that the L2 AA KBot won't be more cost-effective than Jethros.

4) Even if 1 were not true, Mercuries can be trivially neutralized with a Peeper Patrol. GG.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:01

Bulldogs aren't more cost effective then stumpies, but they are more effective because of the law of effectiveness. A unit with more HP and more damage per second is more effective then multiple units with less HP and less damage per second. You cannot remove the unit's damage capability until you have depleted it's entire hit point cache, whereas you can quickly eliminate grouped weak units damage potential by killing them off one by one. IIRC the equation I saw to estimate the balancing factor recommended single units with the same value of hit points and damage per second as a group of smaller units to be twice the value.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:08

Uhhh

5 stumpys doing 25 each @ 1.5 = same as other, but multiple attack speeds...

1 Bull doing 125 per shot @ 1.5 = same as other, but one attack speed...

Which one would win in a fight?

BTW stumpys got like 800 HP- Forgot what bulls got...

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:14

I acully tested a litthe.

1 Brawlie kills 1 jethro(duh)
1 Brawlie kills 2 jethro's (Small margin, but still. Can work either way.)

But what about bigger swarms?
20 Brawlers kills 20 jethros
20 brawlers kills 30 Jethros
20 Brawlers kills 50 jethros (again, small margin, but still)

So, to defend myself agsint a moderate, 20 brawler swarm, i need 50+ jethros. Or about 7 Flak tanks. ( i did a shitload of testing there also, but it's hard to tell which is the 10 flak screen or the 6 flak screen)

The reason i'm comparing mobile AA is because this is an offensive situation. If one uses brawlers as defence, it's not possible to attack without flak guns support unless you can micro a shitload of jethros on the frontline with your troops.

1) This is before Mercuries pop up. By the time your enemy has Mecuries up, you should be able to use Hawks/Vamps, which LRMTs are largely useless against until they've already done their damage. If your opponent has Mercuries and a massive Brawler swarm before you have L2 air, you've done something wrong.

What about Anti swarm? Flak guns? Ect.

Now, i'll ask again. What reson do you have agsint a Level 2 AA K-bot BESIDES making vechiles a better choice?

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:20

I dunno, from where we are now, I would say that a slow-ass not good climbing k-bot would be able to hold an anti air weapon, for level 2 of course..

Just my .02

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:21

And again:

1) How is your enemy getting 20 Brawlers this quickly?

2) Fighters.

Anti-swarmers and flak are irrelevant. They can only destroy the fighters after they've trashed the Brawler swarm. Either that or they're built on the front line, and get smashed by your assault forces.

Though I'd like you to point to me saying "I do not want a T2 AA KBot". I'm just saying that there's plenty of options in these scenarios you're deliberately ignoring.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:35

Near the frontline there could be guardians or other large AoE weapons taking your troop under fire, in that situation few and stronger units are definitely a good idea. After all, three jethros will each take damage from such a shell while a single unit would take the damage only once and as such hold up better even if it has the same number of hitpoints as the three jethros together. Meh, either way people would like a stronger AA option in the kbot Lv2 lab and I don't see any balancing that is based on the fact that such a unit does not exist so why not add it?

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:37

It would have to be decently slow, and be like a banisher/kbot mix....

With homing missiles...

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:51

SwiftSpear wrote:
Egarwaen wrote:
KDR_11k wrote:Perhaps some people would prefer their attack force to consist of a few attack units as well?
Because Jethros and L1 fighters are so unbelievably expensive.
L1 fighters are useless anywhere near mercuries, jethro's die to brawlies at a 4 jethro to 1 brawlie ratio.

What? a mercury is only usefull for swarms, it fires once every 10 secs.
Unless youve bunched your fighters together a mercury will barely make a dent on your numbers, Id be happy to fly my fighters within mercury range if thats the only aa he has.

If the L2 k bot is just basically the same as 4 jethros then cool! it makes my brawlering micro easier, I now dont have to fly to and attack 4 different units I can just blast one instead... much quicker

as for the bulldog law of effectiveness babble... I dont really think you can say either way, a bulldogs cost in stumpies would be more useful in certain situations than 1 single bulldog tank and vice versa, it all depends on what you want to do.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:03

Kixxe wrote:I acully tested a litthe.

1 Brawlie kills 1 jethro(duh)
1 Brawlie kills 2 jethro's (Small margin, but still. Can work either way.)

But what about bigger swarms?
20 Brawlers kills 20 jethros
20 brawlers kills 30 Jethros
20 Brawlers kills 50 jethros (again, small margin, but still)

So, to defend myself agsint a moderate, 20 brawler swarm, i need 50+ jethros. Or about 7 Flak tanks. ( i did a shitload of testing there also, but it's hard to tell which is the 10 flak screen or the 6 flak screen)

The reason i'm comparing mobile AA is because this is an offensive situation. If one uses brawlers as defence, it's not possible to attack without flak guns support unless you can micro a shitload of jethros on the frontline with your troops.

1) This is before Mercuries pop up. By the time your enemy has Mecuries up, you should be able to use Hawks/Vamps, which LRMTs are largely useless against until they've already done their damage. If your opponent has Mercuries and a massive Brawler swarm before you have L2 air, you've done something wrong.
What about Anti swarm? Flak guns? Ect.

Now, i'll ask again. What reson do you have agsint a Level 2 AA K-bot BESIDES making vechiles a better choice?

For the gazzilionth time... build a mercury on your frontline, you'll still need it with level2 aa bots anyway.
A swarm of 20 brawlers is hardly "moderate"
did you work out the cost of 7 flak tanks compared to 20 brawlers

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:08

Snipawolf wrote:Uhhh

5 stumpys doing 25 each @ 1.5 = same as other, but multiple attack speeds...

1 Bull doing 125 per shot @ 1.5 = same as other, but one attack speed...

Which one would win in a fight?

BTW stumpys got like 800 HP- Forgot what bulls got...

Run a sim.

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:33

Snipawolf wrote:Uhhh

5 stumpys doing 25 each @ 1.5 = same as other, but multiple attack speeds...

1 Bull doing 125 per shot @ 1.5 = same as other, but one attack speed...

Which one would win in a fight?

BTW stumpys got like 800 HP- Forgot what bulls got...

*uses simple numbers*

Tank has 1k health and does 100dps
BigTank has 5k health and does 500dps
5 Tanks = 1 BigTank effectivly right? wrong.

6 Tank vs. 1 BigTank

After 2 seconds, one Tank dies and the BigTank is at 3.8k
4 seconds, two Tanks dead, BigTank at 2.8k
6, three Tanks dead, BigTank at 2k
8, four Tanks dead, BigTank at 1.4k
10, five Tanks dead, BigTank at 1k
12, all Tanks dead, BigTank still alive at 800/5000

Clearly the BigTank is more effecive, as it took on 120% of its stats and won. Now granted this is a simple modle that does not take into account wasted shots and not all units firing at once, but it shows the effect of 'combining' stats into unit unit effectivly.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:54

Yeah, but who wouldn't group up weak tanks

chlue · Post by **chlue** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:54

Hunter0000 wrote:...
12, all Tanks dead, BigTank still alive at 800/5000

Thats exactly the reason why many people (including me) want a lvl2 aa-kbot. Ok, one unit may be an easier target for the emeny, but 10 big units will do a better job then 50 little ones and don't die so fast by collateral and aoe damage.
Currently there are a lot of strong anti-air buildings in the game (which is fair, because buildings can't dodge bombers

), but for our mobile forces, there are only few options and I realy hate the argument "Build screamers to protect your mobile forces"...

Btw who kidnapped Caydr?

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:55

ofcourse 1 big units is much better than more weak ones. AOE anyone? Weak units dieing anyone?

but still, maybe lvl2 kbots will make vehicles even more useless. So if we get lvl2 aa kbot, then make adv veh factory cheaper? (25% or so)

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:58

EDIT - meh cant be arsed any more

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 18 Jul 2006, 23:00

Egarwaen wrote: 1) How is your enemy getting 20 Brawlers this quickly?

Whoring air, Ignoring ground units, Using con planes to build a hige eco, using conplanes to build mexxes fast.

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.11