New Console Generation - Page 6

New Console Generation

Post just about everything that isn't directly related to Spring here!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 10 Jul 2013, 14:54

Mr. Bob wrote:
smoth wrote:I don't understand the reference because I never watched the film. Being that we are on youtube links and you posting pictures with things circled in what I can only guess is sarcasm/irritation. Lets stop, I don't like what is happening, you apparently do not and all that will happen is escalation. I would rather stay on good terms with you but as we do feel too passionately with respect ours view. so I hope this post helps clarify it and we can both move on because all we are doing is bashing out heads into respective walls.
Sure, we can stop.

Just to clear up what just happened, I certainly didn't mean to come off as a dick. I was just super confused after the post. I'm assuming now that you were typing it on a phone or something, but at the time it just seemed really random how everything (spelling, grammar, coherency) dropped to the point where I thought it was a satire or something in response to me making giant posts, and I was having a hard time understanding what you were saying. You've always seemed like a fairly reasonable person, just based on the posts I've seen. Ironically, I sort of assumed you were being satirical/sarcastic after, "No. 13 year old.. bob no."
no probably just this whole post/mid migraine thing. I have had one for 3 weeks as of tomorrow :(. According to my neurologist, both my logic/cognition will be of for a while making conversation and though difficult right now. Interestingly enough she also told me I cannot sign any legal document right now or about a week afterwards because it can be argued in court that I wasn't in my right mind at the time of signing. LOL, ok. I guess I could see that, hurting for 2 weeks+ straight could block one's though process. I cannot even code right now because I cannot think straight, which is why much to my frustration NOTHING has been done on my project for that whole period of time. Just typing was a struggle for the first half of the week so I apologize, I was honestly just trying to speak an alternative view to you.
0 x

User avatar
Noruas
XTA Developer
Posts: 1269
Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58

Re: New Console Generation

Post by Noruas » 10 Jul 2013, 21:55

I can vouch for Smoth that southern Internet is pretty shitty and a lot of them do want to play their games. The best internet I can get in my area of Fort worth which is aged 2006-2007 is Dsl around 2 mbps and its generally pretty reliable... for 50 bucks. BUT its even worse in the mid-east/ midwest where its generally very very rural.

Have a vacation house in Colorado, only one monopoly internet provider. Good god have to pay 80 bucks for internet only half the time, for 1.0 mbps on 1950s copper wires, thats for most of Colorado. The internet provider also can go down regularly for DAYS at a time before any fix of techy can get out, not to mention you would pay for that as well, better to wait to see if its on their line first.

Most of the people who play video games might live in the city, but playing with those people online are trash, and not fun. I don't want to play online unless I have too, and when I do, Its about a 80 percent chance its going to be a shitty experience via tech/children. I know the East Coast is built up pretty well and maybe the West, its just unfathomable for them to understand we are 30 years behind average in terms of infrastructure. DRM does not work in those areas, and online single player blew on DIABLO 3 because i kept losing the game. The frustration is unbearable.

I have never bought a game that requires mandatory online connection with exception of MMOs like Ultima Online really old school, and I will continue to do so, until one day when I rely on my old game library with classic PC games. Steam is okay with some single player games like Portal series and Skyrim, but its tricky, have to read the licenses, when Steam if they ever do start requiring online 24/7, its over for them too. I have gone months without Internet and it can easily happen again.

As far as Google Fiber, they will only be in Austin and they don't even have any other plans and will be upgraded in 5 years, around 2018. And I'm not sure how they would Fiber the wires all around Texas very quickly, keep in mind Texas is much larger then most countries. As a Texan I don't care, in Fort Worth, it could be 10 years before stable internet hits the suburban areas. Then how fast would it be say to different parts of the Country.

Also online books is a nono, they tried it at my community college, about 80 percent of the people didn't have internet and quit the class, too busy with 2 jobs to go to the secluded library in town and only owned it for 6 months for 100 bucks. Was a PAIN in the ASS. It had its own program and if the internet dropped it kicked you out of the book, it saved location but when studying it kills the mood quick. I will always opt for physical copy vs. Kindle or whatever shit is currently out. Farenfuckingheight 411.

W/E
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 11 Jul 2013, 00:57

is that why you have been so rare? bummer, I thought you guys had better net than us. I found it funny that 30+ minutes ago when I tried to reply my internet died :|
0 x

User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Re: New Console Generation

Post by PauloMorfeo » 11 Jul 2013, 03:22

I live in London now, go to Manchester frequently and recently spent more than a month in Dublin at a client. Apart from my home in London, I've never ever had decent Internet connection, from Wi-Fis, from mobile broadbands, from nothing.

My best friend spent more than a month in the hospital after a kidney transplant. He did not had Internet, obviously. He played an old version a Championship Manager and Diablo 2.

After playing Starcrap 2's campaigns quite a lot, I moved on to playing challenges. After that, I moved on to play singleplayer (which isn't local and runs online). After I reached the dificulty where the game runs at standard speed (the fastest), it became so laggy (on my "good" Internet connection in London - prime first world location) with the freaking units jumping around, that it literally made me stop playing the game.



It is completely and utterly reasonable to be disgruntled at always-online games, at games that mandate you to "ask" for permission to play it, at games that will become unplayable when the company fails (GPG's SupCom 1 would probably be unplayable by now), at games that require you to install anything else, at games that are anything more than «install and play».

We can't demand the games to be different but it is completely and utterly within our right to be disgruntled.

I find wildely odd Mr. Bob's stance of companies doing whatever they want as far as they can do it and "customers" doing whatever they want as far as they can do it, and then attack so fiercely the disgruntlement against those games. Shouldn't people also think whatever they want!?

Mr. Bob wrote:...
You don't own them though. You're licensing them. It may not seem like a very good bargain, but its what you agree to every time you install the game. ...
Which I find totally unfair, if it isn't actually illegal because you agreed to no such things when you bought it, which is what matters.
Imagine you buying a car and, after you paied for it, you get to know that you are only allowed to use fuel from brand xyz. How about having to pay a monthly fee of 500$, which you did not agree to when you bought it!?

knorke wrote:... The artist/developer also benefits from it because the publishers do the publishing. Advertising costs money. So maybe in the end the developer only gets 5% of the $1000000000000 but that is still more than 100% of $1000
...
Gah, 5%!? What greedy bastards - a 5% income is way too much. It should be 0.1%, because if the overall sales are 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000$, 0.1% of that amounts to more money than one would ever need.
0 x

User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Re: New Console Generation

Post by PauloMorfeo » 11 Jul 2013, 03:26

smoth wrote:... migraine ... my neurologist, ... told me I cannot sign any legal document right now or about a week afterwards because it can be argued in court that I wasn't in my right mind at the time ...
Hmm, sounds like a perfect time to commit a crime - maybe kill someone.
Ok, in case your migraine is too high, that was just a joke and don't do it - unless the crime is pirate some shitty software/multimedia and you're going to compensate the creators (*) by sending them an apropriate amount of money. And if you don't get caught.

* "creators" suits better what I'm trying to mean than "developers".
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 11 Jul 2013, 05:22

before last night were I was feeling particularly good I had 7 hours of gaming over the past 2 weeks, like grand total. I could not really murder someone and if I were capable of murder the whole not being in a right state of mind would kinda fall out. However, what they mean is that right now and a few days afterwards I will be kinda out of it, spaced out and stuff. :|
0 x

User avatar
Mr. Bob
Posts: 357
Joined: 11 Mar 2010, 09:05

Re: New Console Generation

Post by Mr. Bob » 11 Jul 2013, 06:21

PauloMorfeo wrote:I live in London now...
A 24 hour check-in and literally always-online (in the sense that you actually have to be connected to be even in mid play) are entirely different things. A 24 hour checkin just requires internet connection of any kind once a day, better yet, the Steam model, where you just have to log in once.

On the note of literally always-online DRM, I will say that I did feel your pain and the pain of smoth and the others who don't live in highly populated areas that have reliable internet. While I currently live in an area that has essentially 100% reliable internet, I spent a year in the mountains of New Mexico where my net would occasionally (say twice a month or so) cut out for a while. But, the future rapidly approaches! And, sooner or later, everything will be online as virtually everyone has access to stable enough internet to make it viable. We're already at the point where companies (Microsoft) see a large enough clientbase who do have the required internet to make a move in that direction. It may leave some people out (military, extremely rural, apparently southern America, and third worlders) but, companies go where the money is. And the money is in the internet.

Jump on board the technology train! Woo!

Also, does no one here play multiplayer games? If the most successful (albeit shit) games like CoD are basically just multiplayer games with a shitty singleplayer experience, and that many people play it, I think it stands to reason that a great great deal of people (most gamers) have reliable internet. What about MMOs? What about League of Legends? These games are massive. I don't understand why people keep responding to the idea with their own specific example of having shitty internet.
PauloMorfeo wrote:It is completely and utterly reasonable to be disgruntled...

We can't demand the games...

I find wildely odd Mr. Bob's stance...
Of course it's reasonable to be disgruntled, or, more accurately, unsatisfied with a product. What isn't reasonable, is to pull morality into play. People tend to throw around words like "selfish consumers" or "big evil companies" with this topic. That's what's ridiculous.

If you don't like a product, then don't buy it. DRM is part of the product. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If enough people don't like products that include DRM, they'll stop buying it and profits won't be made, thus DRM will either be dropped or changed to meet what people want.

Also, nostalgia (which I don't think you're using, I'm just making a general statement) doesn't help here. A lot of people tend to enter the argument with the idea that their experiences as a child somehow weigh into what people should experience today. If you think "the old days were better" that's fine, but your fond memories aren't exactly admissible, if you're using those in the face of a large amount of people who don't particularly have any problems with new changes.

What happens is we polarize everything. We end up with the "old school" camp, which, of course, in our minds, is full of the exact same ideas that we think were championed from an old era, and "the new kids." We get mad at "the new kids" for liking things we don't, so we act superior by assuming that everyone who doesn't agree has simply never experience the "joy" of whatever system was in place in your youth. Its like Ludditism with a bandwagon, and its not something I'd consider in an argument or even entertain.
PauloMorfeo wrote:Which I find totally unfair...

which you did not agree to when you bought it!?
Is it unfair or is it a bad bargain? When you buy a disc for a game, you're buying a physical vessel for software. That software can be anything they want it to be, and if you don't like what it is, then don't buy the vessel or the software. If you don't think that this is the way it should work, stop buying games.

On the note of "what you agree to," when you buy a game, you're technically agreeing to buy a physical little disc that can have any software or no software. You can make educated guesses as to what the software will be, but you're still just buying a physical disc.

Now, if you're going to buy software directly, then you are deciding to buy or not buy it under terms that they outline. Sellers have the right to sell products under any terms they want (no matter how small the print.) Its not about fairness, its about wether or not its a good deal. If you don't think its a good deal, then just don't agree to their terms and don't buy the software.

I have the right to offer you my shirt for $5 and the agreement that I can take your entire house, car, and all of your other clothing at any time I want. I have the right to offer that. If you don't like that deal, you obviously won't agree to it. You don't have the right to get an offer you want. Sellers sell what they want, how they want, and buyers buy what they want, and vote with their wallets. (Capitalism.)

If you want a deal that states that you get A) a physical disc that includes an installer for content that B) you have the complete ownership over, then you should just stop buying into other deals and ask for that deal instead. You may be disappointed, as the vast majority of consumers don't seem to mind, but c'est la vie.

I ENJOY MAKING LARGE WALLS OF TEXT.

(If anyone wants me to stop, just tell me. I enjoy these sorts of things a lot, though. I'm one of those weird people who gets adrenaline rushes from arguing.)
0 x

User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: New Console Generation

Post by knorke » 11 Jul 2013, 08:51

PauloMorfeo wrote:
knorke wrote:... The artist/developer also benefits from it because the publishers do the publishing. Advertising costs money. So maybe in the end the developer only gets 5% of the $1000000000000 but that is still more than 100% of $1000
...
Gah, 5%!? What greedy bastards - a 5% income is way too much. It should be 0.1%, because if the overall sales are 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000$, 0.1% of that amounts to more money than one would ever need.
If you want to talk about REALLY big discrepancy between producer and seller then look at something like bananas or coffee. Or to keep it in gaming/electronic sector look at Foxconn etc.

For video games according to google the split-percentage varies widly.
For the big console games average/standard seems to be 15%
Imagehttp://www.jacehallshow.com/blog/201105 ... ucks-goes/

Maybe it seems unfair that publisher gets so much money for basically just providing distribution, and download is cheap?
But it is not the download (as in server costs etc) that creators pay for.
It is the exposure of the game to millions of gamers, for example to all who have steam installed.
How much money would you need to for an advertising campaign that shows the game to such amount of people?
Mr. Bob wrote:The real issue is which markets you gain the upper hand in. When products like this effect culture in such a broad way, it turns the competition into a land grab. [...]
Now, obviously, for core gamer groups this is a non issue.
I agree with the part about land grab but not that last sentence. With PC players is just the same, just not with hardware but about the download software. Download software is free yet people are hesitant to install multiple clients and create more accounts. At the moment steam has basically "won", it is on basically all PCs and everything else is compared to it. People even beg developers to put their game on steam, even if they can already buy it via some other system. Just because it is less hassle. And developers do it. (So much for indy.)


Companies look at some statistics what kind of 3D cards, processors etc they can expect gamers to have, if your system does not match - too bad. Gamers played along. We even see excactly this in spring modding btw.
And now internet requirement for games is just another system requirement.
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: New Console Generation

Post by smoth » 11 Jul 2013, 16:21

Mr. Bob wrote:I ENJOY MAKING LARGE WALLS OF TEXT.
HA HA HA<3 is that a threat!?!
0 x

User avatar
jK
Spring Developer
Posts: 2299
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 07:30

Re: New Console Generation

Post by jK » 11 Jul 2013, 17:55

knorke wrote:Maybe it seems unfair that publisher gets so much money for basically just providing distribution, and download is cheap?
ppl underestimate the work of a publisher. Still their revenues are unfair compared to developer's. That's why developers like Steam & co. cause they got special deals with the publishers, to either being able to sell their games 100% w/o them on the internet or with a higher profit.
Still here a few examples of what a publisher does:
* box art
* bug testing
* gameplay testing (yes, they are responsible for gameplay changes, too)
* giving room on trade fairs -> PR (duno if this is already in marketing cost)
* sometimes they supply the multiplayer server farm
* giving help in development (e.g. when the developer needs a musician/soundtrack)
* they _fund_ the project -> they invest a lot of money in the critical time of development (after spending ~2years on the game w/o earning a cent)
* they talk with the banks to get even more investors
* they talk with the suit guys of the hw vendors, library/engine vendors, ...
...

On the other hand they decide when they publish a game, so when they have another AAA title on christmas, it can happen that your title gets a kick in the ass and gets released on easter -> much less sales for you -> much less money -> you got f#$@
0 x

luckywaldo7
Posts: 1397
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: New Console Generation

Post by luckywaldo7 » 11 Jul 2013, 18:36

And, since we're talking about piracy, I don't see any moral issue with pirating, but I also don't see any moral issue with enacting measures to prevent piracy. If people are going to pirate your software, eliminating potential profits, then why not require them to check in with your servers? You don't have the right to be able to pirate any software just because software is software. Obviously, the seller isn't technically loosing anything as its just cloned information (and not being taken out of a brick and mortar stock) but the seller can still take action to prevent it, because developers have the right to make whatever they want. DRM is part of the software in the first place, and if you don't want that software, just don't buy it. If you can't pirate it, too bad.
Oh, but they can pirate it, and they are. People are simply hacking around the always-online DRM, so only legitimate customers need to deal with it.

It has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with capitalism. A product with always-online DRM happens to end up being better for non-paying customers than paying customers. In the end, a company that chooses always-online DRM is actually encouraging people to pirate it instead.

I don't buy games with (what I consider to be) bad DRM and I'm not complaining about those games, and I don't pirate them either. I'm just here because I just happen to enjoy watching stupid companies shoot themselves while having no idea what's going on. (So yes, I am also with you on being disappointed about XBox One, but only because I love watching MS burn)

Piracy isn't killing PC gaming. Some bad DRM is killing some business. I'm not even mad.
0 x

User avatar
Mr. Bob
Posts: 357
Joined: 11 Mar 2010, 09:05

Re: New Console Generation

Post by Mr. Bob » 11 Jul 2013, 19:29

knorke wrote:I agree with the part about land grab but not that last sentence....
Yeah, that's true. And, its why we desperately need a good competitor for Steam. Origin is shooting in that direction, but they've only expanded to reach their own products.
knorke wrote:Companies look at some statistics what kind of 3D cards, processors etc they can expect gamers to have, if your system does not match - too bad. Gamers played along. We even see excactly this in spring modding btw.
And now internet requirement for games is just another system requirement.
I agree entirely. Not only is that just how capitalism works, but its great that it does, as it means shit evolves. We get better looking games because people get generally better hardware. We get more features because people have the support for it. Etc etc
smoth wrote:HA HA HA<3 is that a threat!?!
Think of it as a reminder of my affliction!

---
luckywaldo7 wrote:Oh, but they can pirate it, and they are..
Absolutely. It's just sheer incompetence on the side of the people who use DRM. No arguments there.
luckywaldo7 wrote:It has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with capitalism...
Again, I absolutely agree. Companies are simply really really bad at implementing it correctly and actually preventing piracy. In the process, they're causing piracy.
luckywaldo7 wrote:I don't buy games with (what I consider to be) bad DRM and I'm not complaining about those games...
Respectable. Again, I think we're pretty much on the same page here. If DRM is implemented so poorly, its a bad product, and not worth buying. I'm even fine with pirating it in light of that.
luckywaldo7 wrote:Piracy isn't killing PC gaming. Some bad DRM is killing some business. I'm not even mad.
Probably true, but not nearly to the effect everyone assumes it is. Steam is still enormous and there's really not way to get pirated software through their system.
0 x

User avatar
zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
Posts: 7017
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Re: New Console Generation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jul 2013, 21:17

Mr. Bob wrote:These games are massive.
I am reasonably confident that it is easier to hear from people who have a reliable net than from offline players playing oldies. How do you measure the mass of a game?
0 x

User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: New Console Generation

Post by knorke » 11 Jul 2013, 21:19

How do you measure the mass of a game?
There are many ways. Dollars, Euros, Yen,...
0 x

User avatar
zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
Posts: 7017
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Re: New Console Generation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jul 2013, 21:26

So, if I play only Spring RTS, and 10 year old games my cousin pirated, because I don't like the current trend of the gaming industry, then I am weightless!
0 x

User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: New Console Generation

Post by knorke » 11 Jul 2013, 21:33

Yes. The New Console Generation does not care about you. (or me)
Float like a feather weeee!
0 x

User avatar
Mr. Bob
Posts: 357
Joined: 11 Mar 2010, 09:05

Re: New Console Generation

Post by Mr. Bob » 11 Jul 2013, 21:36

zwzsg wrote:
Mr. Bob wrote:These games are massive.
I am reasonably confident that it is easier to hear from people who have a reliable net than from offline players playing oldies. How do you measure the mass of a game?
How is it easier? The only language companies speak is profit. If you aren't speaking profit to them, they don't care.
zwzsg wrote:So, if I play only Spring RTS, and 10 year old games my cousin pirated, because I don't like the current trend of the gaming industry, then I am weightless!
Correct. Welcome to an ever changing media medium. Personally, I like the current trends in gaming a great deal more than the old ones, so I'm fine with it.
0 x

User avatar
zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
Posts: 7017
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Re: New Console Generation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jul 2013, 21:39

It is easier because the Internet is not only used to unlock games, but also to chat on forum or IM between gamers.
0 x

User avatar
Mr. Bob
Posts: 357
Joined: 11 Mar 2010, 09:05

Re: New Console Generation

Post by Mr. Bob » 11 Jul 2013, 21:42

zwzsg wrote:It is easier because the Internet is not only used to unlock games, but also to chat on forum or IM between gamers.
How and why would companies like Microsoft use that as a scale for what is and isn't profitable? If the majority of your sales come from games that are always online (exclusively multiplayer games) then it stands to reason that the majority of your consumer base has access to the internet to the point where they can support it. Thus, they'll make a push in that direction.

If there was a bigger potential for money to be made from people who not only don't have access to the internet but only play singler player games, they'd be raking in phat phat moneys from those games.
0 x

User avatar
zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
Posts: 7017
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Re: New Console Generation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jul 2013, 21:52

You're saying online games are massive. I point out they may seem bigger than they are since you don't hear from people without internet.

As a gamer, the amount of money Microsoft make is not my primary concern. Since when are consumers now required to forfeit their own feeling, their own taste and to only to act in accordance with the best interest of companies?

I find your trust in free market a bit scary. And no, even if both party agreed to it, not all sales are legal. Thanksfully, even in murica, there are laws to protect consumers against abuse.
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic Discussion”