We are talking so much about balancing

Andreask · Post by **Andreask** » 07 Jul 2006, 22:45

So read this:

http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design ... efault.asp

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 07 Jul 2006, 23:58

Interesting read. Its funny though - I, at least, was following the general theme of it already (that is, broad balance 'sketches' or macrocaliberation, then smaller tweaks once the general gameplay was good). Then again, when 'balancing' n00berhack, I had the tendancy to overbalance, or change too many variables at once.

The neat thing is that this engine is fantastic (weapon-unit specific damage system, unlimited armor classes, ability to tweak unit characteristics easily and quickly on a per unit basis) for microcalibration, so while implementing a macro scheme can be annoying, once you have that, the tweaking is very straightforward. The implementation of the tweaks, that is. Finding the things to tweak can be a never ending process - see the AA thread for proof.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 08 Jul 2006, 00:14

Read this too.

edit: Yes, the article does in fact agree with my opinions. Get over it.

I personally think my opinions are correct, and I personally think that the best Spring mod would follow my opinions, and so I personally think that reading the article would help someone to balance a better mod. That's why I posted the link here.

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 08 Jul 2006, 00:22

just my two cents but u might want to disclaimer that link as mainly ur opinion

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 08 Jul 2006, 00:24

Wiki article was far, far far less useful than the first one. Good try Lindir, but better luck next time - it seems like you mostly wrote down your impressions of AA/OTA style gameplay, then turned it into an article on strategy theory. Which is fine and all, but not very useful for someone who wants to learn more about game balance.

Andreask · Post by **Andreask** » 08 Jul 2006, 02:00

AA is jsut suffering from inconsistency, if you follow this theory, TBH.

Then again, it would only be half the fun to play if we wouldnt have all these iterations.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 08 Jul 2006, 07:49

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-bala ... d-example/

I've spent ALOT of time thinking about this issue. Bear with me while I read through your artical and I'll edit my thoughts and opinions in here. In the mean time check out sirlin's throughts on the matter, I found them quite well formed.

[edit] This is a VERY good balance article for development of RTS titles. I'd definately recommend that all our mod designers take a look at it.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 08 Jul 2006, 18:47

Nemo wrote:Wiki article was far, far far less useful than the first one.

So? I never said that it was better. It's not about game balance, more about games in general.

I still think that reading it will help you to better balance a game. But not nearly as much as reading the first article.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 08 Jul 2006, 19:21

and I think that your article is more or less useless to someone who wants to balance a game <_<

If you feel strongly about whatever concepts you tried to put into your article, make a mod yourself.

I find your article less useful because (as I said) it has little to say on balance that isn't in the same theme as OTA (or now, AA). You've recognized some of the themes present in those games, which is good, but by no means are those the only or best ideas to work with. To put it another way, all you have in that article are balance clich├â┬®s, so to speak. Your article is closer to a design doc than anything else, since it puts forward several very game specific ideas as the best way to do something.

Take it and make a game and blow us all away. Until then, try to remember what it is you're writing.

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 08 Jul 2006, 21:00

Andreask wrote:So read this:

http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design ... efault.asp

You actually made me loose some time reading the first page of it. It was not wasted time. I even logged in to tell i think that article is good.

And

SwiftSpear wrote:http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-bala ... d-example/
...

Isn't even nearly quite as good!
Poorly structured and, without reading part 2, talks much about imbalances and stuff but provides little objectivness about it as well as no real solutions/recomendations.

Molloy · Post by **Molloy** » 08 Jul 2006, 22:36

One of the points this article makes that I think is highly important is that balance is influenced by player ability. OTA balance evolved for 8 years (radically from year to year) despite there being no new patches. As player skills develop you get completely new approaches and strategies.

Cadyr's tweaking is one aspect of AA balance, but WarC, XHC and the other people who spend 20+ hours a week playing this game have a much bigger influence over the mod balance than Cadyr does.

I think Chris Taylor has the right approach to game design. You create a world with few rules (infinite resouces, build anywhere you want), do a little rough balancing and then just forget about it. The players are going to balance the game for you. No point wasting your time patching it because it's all beyond your control. People are going to take the game to pieces, build it back up, and play it how they want to.

Theotherguy · Post by **Theotherguy** » 08 Jul 2006, 22:53

agreed, if you want to see the balance of a game change, start playing at the beginning and then come back a year later, and it will be much different than what you're used to.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 08 Jul 2006, 22:55

peh, I think what i have planned for gundam will really be something new. I have only halfway completed it but when it is done it will be neat.

Day · Post by **Day** » 08 Jul 2006, 23:09

will it take our minds?

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 09 Jul 2006, 01:52

DDDAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ;.;

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 09 Jul 2006, 04:27

Nemo wrote:and I think that your article is more or less useless to someone who wants to balance a game <_<

... blah blah blah ...

Take it and make a game and blow us all away. Until then, try to remember what it is you're writing.

I just realized something: You're talking about the "balance in an RTS" part.

Yes, by all means, do NOT read the balance in an RTS part if you don't want opinion. It really isn't about how to balance an RTS, just about what the perfect RTS (for me) would be like. I'll try to add some stuff ablut balance tomorrow.

But someone who wants to balance a game should read the rest of the article. That's why I linked to the entire article, not just the last part.

WARNING:

DO NOT READ THE LAST SECTION

And if you do, I reserve the right to completely ignore your comments and complaints.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 09 Jul 2006, 04:31

Lindir The Green wrote:Read this too.

edit: Yes, the article does in fact agree with my opinions. Get over it.

I personally think my opinions are correct, and I personally think that the best Spring mod would follow my opinions, and so I personally think that reading the article would help someone to balance a better mod. That's why I posted the link here.

Lindir, first, your wiki entry is a good start. Second, I'm considering adding further to it, as all I've doen thus far is clarify some things.

Third, the tips presented at both links are intuitive - so, the community should easily grasp them.

Spring RTS Engine

We are talking so much about balancing

We are talking so much about balancing

Re: We are talking so much about balancing