Ironic mod hijacking

[nixtux]

I know this subject has been discussed many many times before but it happened again, and ironic that it's being done by an ex dev of the mod, if you feel strongly that we should once and for all put an end to this practice please make your view heard here https://springrts.com/mantis/view.php?id=5171

The map in question is http://springfiles.com/spring/spring-ma ... techa-x-v3

In it primal form the map was well within the guidelines as it was about updated geo units, but this latest form has hidden balance changes

Please if you feel strongly that it should be stop post on the first link, many thanks nixtux

[PicassoCT]

Are you suggesting a sort of certified content chain going out from a game? With revokes and all that stuff?

[zwzsg]

I'd rather consider this as social issue, requiring social solution, than a technical one.

[PicassoCT]

He is right, i get the lobotomy kit and fire up the condensators of the re-education chair. This calls for immediate discussion

[Silentwings]

I think it would be best if games had means to choose whether lua code from mutators/maps/etc is executed. To do so requires nothing more than knowing the source of the file*.

The functionality already exists for VFS.RAW versus VFS.ZIP (and is used by e.g. ZK/BA/BAR to allow/disallow user widgets on request). Unfortunately it looks like VFS.MAP/VFS.MOD/VFS.BASE were planned but then never exposed/implemented.


(*) This is almost but not quite true - to handle extremely determined cases of hijacking it would also be needed that lua entry points are picked up from VFS.BASE, VFS.RAW and VFS.ZIP, in priority over VFS.MAP and VFS.MOD. But most of the use cases of this are more pleasant than hijacking.

[gajop]

A technical solution to prevent people from making mutators, i.e. "mods", for your game makes very little sense to me, especially in the context of Spring.
Shouldn't we encourage modding in an open source community? This would only invite people to modify the original game and redistribute it as a whole. I don't think making modding harder is the way to go. (This would also affect me, seeing that Scened is a mutator itself, although obviously not a mod. It could result in some sort of whitelisting effort, but that might be cumbersome.)

What seems to me to be the problem here is that you don't have control over your autohosts and map distribution sites. You should be able to designate what content is official for your game, but still allow players to explore modded content on private hosts.

Even though I disagree with the use case presented, the request on mantis: "0005171: Way to identify if file is part of game or came from a map/mutator" is perfectly valid. I can imagine wanting to load files with the same name from different archives, without implicit overrides, and this should allow that.

[Senna]

Spring is a close source, never an open source it seems

Also, when in spring its allowed to ban a whole country

[Senna]

Sorry but its really Ironic XD

He advertises it as Special with his special addons, or he has in the past.

He says "come play dsd special LINK" or something similar. He runs it on nixtux autohost and there is no description of it being another mod. Just special.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19093&p=356227&hil ... ux#p356227

[8611z]

From mapmod the techa was born. Now techa is big enought that techa mapmods get made.

On official autohosts it seems !map command still allows to set the unwanted maps:

!map geogreenfieldstecha x v1
* [BoS]Autohost * Map changed by asdf: GeoGreenFieldsTechA X v1
!maplink
* [BoS]Autohost * Map link: http://spring.jobjol.nl/search_result.p ... select_all

Could configure that. (btw maplink is fuckulated somehow)

Report it for "mod hijack" on forum + springfiles to get it removed until has proper name/description.
(imo this should be possible and iirc worked for ba)

Put a wubget into the mod that exists game on certain mapnames/substrings or displays a message.

Do thee not stray from the path of the blue and grey worlds for all around there is darkness.

[abma]

@Senna, nixtux:

can't you work together on the same game? Whats the purpose of the map mutator? It has the huge drawback that it only works with this specific map and can't be played on an other map. When the changes are good, why not integrate it into the game?

i don't see why the map should be deleted on springfiles: it looks more like you just need to talk to find a reasonable solution.

[PicassoCT]

Things noone ever contemplated- per Map-Mod-Modifikator- i shall call them MaMoMo, now if you have only a small per Map Mod Mutator, you have a Mini MapModMutator, thats a MiMaMoMu, you got to differentiate, else you would sound like a idiot talking wrong spring-alese.
Oh, wait, not Modifikators- games, of course.
So its MaGaMu and MiMaGaMu.
Some people are just babblin Idiots, repeating buzzwords, but others, those who grow the NewRoses in the Walled Garden of professionalism, those you got to praise.

[nixtux]

@zwzsg I dont see how any social solution are going to work for this repeat offender.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19093&hilit=senna
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21572&hilit=senna

@gajop I don't want to prevent anyone form making a mutator, i still use this feature for robot defence with techa, imo once we can see what's inside the map archive with a few basic checks it should be easy to see if it a valid mutator or a hijack.

@Senna

Sorry but its really Ironic XD

He advertises it as Special with his special addons, or he has in the past.

He says "come play dsd special LINK" or something similar. He runs it on nixtux autohost and there is no description of it being another mod. Just special.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19093&p=356227&hilit=nixtux#p356227

I fully agree, and I hold my hand up to my past crimes, im my defence i was new to spring at the time and i didn't realise the full implication of my action.

@abma

can't you work together on the same game? Whats the purpose of the map mutator? It has the huge drawback that it only works with this specific map and can't be played on an other map. When the changes are good, why not integrate it into the game?

We have already tried this and it didn't work out too well after senna attempt to push this commit.
https://github.com/n3wm1nd/TA/pull/962
He sulked and deleted his branch. (i have chat log but wont be posting due to privacy)

i don't see why the map should be deleted on springfiles: it looks more like you just need to talk to find a reasonable solution.

Because it's in clear violation of the guildlines layed out here.viewtopic.php?f=91&t=34326
Which seem to work fine for ba but not techa.

With over 30+ unit changes (that not including the extra ego unit) imo its classed as a substantial change.

Substantial changes should be made with a fork & an entirely new mod file with new naming scheme.

I will say in the maps original format just the extra geo type units it was well within the guidelines.

Map mutators are best for small changes that are map specific (e.g. Duck Fusions).

Also there is no valid description of those changes on springfiles you will need to look inside archive.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=30491&hilit=senna#p542203
So in his own admission his is fully deceiving players.

[abma]

We have already tried this and it didn't work out too well after senna attempt to push this commit.
https://github.com/n3wm1nd/TA/pull/962
He raged and deleted his repo.

no, he deleted the branch, not the repo. also this looks far away from a rage. wrt the pull request: i guess the information is missing why tll thunder speed needs to be increased.

[nixtux]

yeah sorry abma rage was the wrong word there, after going back and reading private pm from senna, i will edit to reflect my opinion of what was said by senna in pm to me.

[Super Mario]

A technical solution to prevent people from making mutators, i.e. "mods", for your game makes very little sense to me, especially in the context of Spring.
Shouldn't we encourage modding in an open source community?

There nothing morally wrong with devs protecting their work.

[Senna]

As we are talking about this, it is posible to compile a own mod and pw it to protect the sources? Or this is not allowed?.
Best way to protect own stuff is that, cuz im really tired of ppl always stoling my ideas.

[abma]

you could sign all game files and check if the files are signed on load

basicly any copy/modification protection can be bypassed, so this doesn't make much sense IMHO.

[Forboding Angel]

...cuz im really tired of ppl always stoling my ideas.

FOSS communities probably aren't the right fit for you if that's the case.

[Senna]

Because it's in clear violation of the guildlines layed out here.viewtopic.php?f=91&t=34326
Which seem to work fine for ba but not techa.

With over 30+ unit changes (that not including the extra ego unit) imo its classed as a substantial change.

Substantial changes should be made with a fork & an entirely new mod file with new naming scheme.

The day People Buy the models, then we can respect about copyright stuff

TA mod 60% units are stolen from BA
25% Units stolen from Unit universe

Devastator, Broadside, OPS Center, t3 t2 engineer cruisers cons even the names are stolen from Final Frontier

Tabitha and influence stolen from NOTA.

so your
Because it's in clear violation of the guildlines layed out here.viewtopic.php?f=91&t=34326

Cant be right, unless is a completely renewed mod from complete scratch.

[nixtux]

@Senna

The day People Buy the models, then we can respect about copyright stuff

TA mod 60% units are stolen from BA
25% Units stolen from Unit universe

Devastator, Broadside, OPS Center, t3 t2 engineer cruisers cons even the names are stolen from Final Frontier

Tabitha and influence stolen from NOTA.

so your
Because it's in clear violation of the guildlines layed out here.viewtopic.php?f=91&t=34326

Cant be right, unless is a completely renewed mod from complete scratch.

What are you on about senna your argument makes zero sense, but while we are talking about stolen models after taking the mod over from you i noticed that some of the models you added are more TA:Escalation which were used without there consent, i did contact them and it as agreed that i can use the model as long as i add a link to there site, its on every download page from techa on springfiles.

Also there is a link there for krogoth86 as ive used his model from Max Annihilation.

Split discussion of this to viewtopic.php?f=91&t=34817 (silentwings)

@abma

can't you work together on the same game?

sorry but do you really expect me to work with someone who sends pm like this.

[00:54] ** Query with [ACE]Senna
[00:54] ([ACE]Senna) since now on i will compile and pw protect my stuff now
[00:55] ([ACE]Senna) so no one will open it unless hes very pro doing it
[01:36] ([ACE]Senna) viewtopic.php?f=91&t=34774&p=577338#p577338
[01:36] ([ACE]Senna) and no, it doesnt work from BA
[01:36] ([ACE]Senna) yes from BAR cuz models are completely new
[01:38] ([ACE]Senna) there are tons of BA forks
[01:38] ([ACE]Senna) and if i make a mutator from TA u will bitch, but watch out
[01:39] ([ACE]Senna) u have 0 rights on the models

@Senna

btw you missed the point abma was trying to get across.