hypothetical situation:
BA sea must be redesigned from scratch. what would you change about it? what would stay the same? what units might you add in to fill in the gaps?
BA Sea
Moderator: Content Developer
Re: BA Sea
I want all units ( with T2 hovers! ) from DSD Water Special but with normal sounds and balance :)
Re: BA Sea
I want supcom ships with good unit control!
Re: BA Sea
Here's my design (I should just implement this as a mutator and try it out, really):
Global changes
1) Depthcharges are uw-only and have blast-radius. Most DC units will become Torp units.
2) 20%ish across-the-board armor/firepower buff to better fight shoreline & hover units.
3) All DC weapons get sonar to match DC range.
4) All underwater units (incl. Sub Pen and Seaplane fac) are immune to surface-based weaponry short of nuclear weapons. Berthas can wipe-out a surface player, but can't kill an underwater player. Implement using a Lua gadget so it will apply to amphibious land units under water.
Immobiles:
1) Shoreline DC becomes Shoreline torp-launcher. No collidefriendly or avoidfriendly. Very long range so it can outrange all but the Destroyer and can protect nearby econ and shipyard. Slow projectile so scouts can evade.
2) Floating torp launcher becomes DC. Dirt-cheap anti-sub/anti-amphib LLT (in price and range terms, but with fierce firepower).... but useless against boats.
3) FHLT price x1.5 and gets enough firepower to rape anything that comes into it's short range. Is floating rape, but can be pwned from range. Functionally a mix between the HLT and the CA Antiswarmer. Effective, but only useful for chokepoints.
4) Add L2 Underwater nanotower, with similar bp/cost as L1 surface-tower. This means that, at L2, the economy can be fully submerged - BA L2 has ferocious buildpower/cost on the surface, but nothing underwater.
5) Add bob-up underwater immobile anti-nuke. Will surface to launch anti-nuke, but will return underwater. Same reason as 4.
L1 Mobiles:
1) Scout is the same, Con is the same
2) Corvette gets light speed-nerf and range-boost, switching weapon to more conventional gauss-like. Also get very-weak short-ranged DC. Now you can raid.
3) Destroyer becomes cut-price mobile guardian - raise price up to 1200ish and can no longer fight subs. Has switchable-trajectory and anti-naval boost so it really is a floating Guardian, but slightly shorter-ranged and mobile.
4) L1 Sub and Sub Killer can fire in any direction so it's no longer a micro-nightmare.
5) Add seaplane-lab to Beaver - this gives players a way to get into underwater L2 eco.
L2 Mobiles:
1) Sub killer becomes DC unit. It really is just for killing _subs_ (and other underwater targets).
2) Cruiser range down to HLT range, but retains beefy weaponry otherwise.
3) Add long-ranged (screamer?) SAM to missile ship, raise price. Remember you can also use Destroyers for high-traj shoreline attack.
4) Naval Combat Eng. gets L2 AA bot like the land-based combat eng.
Air:
1) Weak DC added to an L1 air unit - probably bombers, but whatever works. Thus L1 air can be used to raid metal extractors.
Hovers:
1) Similarly, put weak DC on rocket-artillery hovers... simply because that's the most inconvenient unit for the role.
In short, exaggerate the RPS-ness of the gameplay. Shoreline DCs provide all-purpose defense against mainline combat units (scouts can raid by raw speed, and artillery boats like the Destroyer can destroy it). Vettes can raid mexes. Subs pwn vettes since vette DC is weak - it's for demolitions, not combat. Subs get pwned by cheap, plentiful static DC launchers... but those floating DC launchers are helpless against boats. Destroyers become important fire-support boats but too expensive to use as your main combat vessel. Open water is very, very RPS-y with the triangle of vette/FloatDC/sub... but shorelines mean shoreline-launchers, so you either have to mass a large force of 'Vettes or save up for a destroyer or L2 artillery unit.
You don't really get a jack-of-all-trades spammable vessel like the Destroyer until the L2 Cruiser, and even that lacks the range to pwn the HLT or the shoreline-torp-launcher. So the L1 Destroyer remains useful for artillery until you bring out a battleship (or you use the Missile ship, but that now wears two hats as it also provides LRAA).
L1 subs (sub killers can't target surface untis) and destroyers are still important at L2.
Also, in late-game, you can survive the bertha-phase of the game by relying on underwater units and seaplanes (and whatever L2 subs you had before the berthas forced you to reclaim your L2 lab).
Global changes
1) Depthcharges are uw-only and have blast-radius. Most DC units will become Torp units.
2) 20%ish across-the-board armor/firepower buff to better fight shoreline & hover units.
3) All DC weapons get sonar to match DC range.
4) All underwater units (incl. Sub Pen and Seaplane fac) are immune to surface-based weaponry short of nuclear weapons. Berthas can wipe-out a surface player, but can't kill an underwater player. Implement using a Lua gadget so it will apply to amphibious land units under water.
Immobiles:
1) Shoreline DC becomes Shoreline torp-launcher. No collidefriendly or avoidfriendly. Very long range so it can outrange all but the Destroyer and can protect nearby econ and shipyard. Slow projectile so scouts can evade.
2) Floating torp launcher becomes DC. Dirt-cheap anti-sub/anti-amphib LLT (in price and range terms, but with fierce firepower).... but useless against boats.
3) FHLT price x1.5 and gets enough firepower to rape anything that comes into it's short range. Is floating rape, but can be pwned from range. Functionally a mix between the HLT and the CA Antiswarmer. Effective, but only useful for chokepoints.
4) Add L2 Underwater nanotower, with similar bp/cost as L1 surface-tower. This means that, at L2, the economy can be fully submerged - BA L2 has ferocious buildpower/cost on the surface, but nothing underwater.
5) Add bob-up underwater immobile anti-nuke. Will surface to launch anti-nuke, but will return underwater. Same reason as 4.
L1 Mobiles:
1) Scout is the same, Con is the same
2) Corvette gets light speed-nerf and range-boost, switching weapon to more conventional gauss-like. Also get very-weak short-ranged DC. Now you can raid.
3) Destroyer becomes cut-price mobile guardian - raise price up to 1200ish and can no longer fight subs. Has switchable-trajectory and anti-naval boost so it really is a floating Guardian, but slightly shorter-ranged and mobile.
4) L1 Sub and Sub Killer can fire in any direction so it's no longer a micro-nightmare.
5) Add seaplane-lab to Beaver - this gives players a way to get into underwater L2 eco.
L2 Mobiles:
1) Sub killer becomes DC unit. It really is just for killing _subs_ (and other underwater targets).
2) Cruiser range down to HLT range, but retains beefy weaponry otherwise.
3) Add long-ranged (screamer?) SAM to missile ship, raise price. Remember you can also use Destroyers for high-traj shoreline attack.
4) Naval Combat Eng. gets L2 AA bot like the land-based combat eng.
Air:
1) Weak DC added to an L1 air unit - probably bombers, but whatever works. Thus L1 air can be used to raid metal extractors.
Hovers:
1) Similarly, put weak DC on rocket-artillery hovers... simply because that's the most inconvenient unit for the role.
In short, exaggerate the RPS-ness of the gameplay. Shoreline DCs provide all-purpose defense against mainline combat units (scouts can raid by raw speed, and artillery boats like the Destroyer can destroy it). Vettes can raid mexes. Subs pwn vettes since vette DC is weak - it's for demolitions, not combat. Subs get pwned by cheap, plentiful static DC launchers... but those floating DC launchers are helpless against boats. Destroyers become important fire-support boats but too expensive to use as your main combat vessel. Open water is very, very RPS-y with the triangle of vette/FloatDC/sub... but shorelines mean shoreline-launchers, so you either have to mass a large force of 'Vettes or save up for a destroyer or L2 artillery unit.
You don't really get a jack-of-all-trades spammable vessel like the Destroyer until the L2 Cruiser, and even that lacks the range to pwn the HLT or the shoreline-torp-launcher. So the L1 Destroyer remains useful for artillery until you bring out a battleship (or you use the Missile ship, but that now wears two hats as it also provides LRAA).
L1 subs (sub killers can't target surface untis) and destroyers are still important at L2.
Also, in late-game, you can survive the bertha-phase of the game by relying on underwater units and seaplanes (and whatever L2 subs you had before the berthas forced you to reclaim your L2 lab).
Re: BA Sea
Here is SA's sea balance.
It's simple.
Scout ships have 2 weapns.long range missiles and close range laser/plasma.
Scout boats also have high line of sight.
Submarines are pretty weak in terms of dps and hp for cost but sonar in SA is more expensive as well,as are torp launchers and offshore bombardment though they are still very good.
Subs cant stand versus destroyers for cost but subs cant get attacked by hover and are not spotted by radar.
Destroyers kill subs for cost and can bombard land areas but have very low line of sigh so without scout support they are blind.
Basicly the main design is pushing subs to the sideline while still giving them an interesting role as surprise attackers.
Making the base unit cheap so you can have a lot of it and losing one isn't that big of a deal and still allowing the scout ships to deal good dmg when raiding buildings and getting into close range.
Lightest sea defense is the floating missile tower.
It is cheap and effective and shoots both land and air but has low hp and is very weak versus frontal rushes.
Floating missile towers are good as support behind allied ships,that way they kite with their range but hide behind heavier units with more hp(in ba this is not possible since units cannot shoot through allied units).
Than comes the fhlt which is a powerfull support turret but can be outranged by destroyers with some micro and hover arty and are of course completely defenseless versus a surprise sub attack.
Now BA is different but i think relying on cheaper main sea units with a very niche submarine(and the torp defenses) that does not have a limited arch of fire(this actually results in poorer microability since you cant retreat you just have to stand there hope your sub wins)
Plus having a cheap main defense like a high llt like turret with more range(can be a cheapened fhlt) so it can shoot over your own lines of units might change sea and create a different experience that some might consider better(those that oppose the current one).
Also,pintle why do you never log in these days?
It's simple.
Scout ships have 2 weapns.long range missiles and close range laser/plasma.
Scout boats also have high line of sight.
Submarines are pretty weak in terms of dps and hp for cost but sonar in SA is more expensive as well,as are torp launchers and offshore bombardment though they are still very good.
Subs cant stand versus destroyers for cost but subs cant get attacked by hover and are not spotted by radar.
Destroyers kill subs for cost and can bombard land areas but have very low line of sigh so without scout support they are blind.
Basicly the main design is pushing subs to the sideline while still giving them an interesting role as surprise attackers.
Making the base unit cheap so you can have a lot of it and losing one isn't that big of a deal and still allowing the scout ships to deal good dmg when raiding buildings and getting into close range.
Lightest sea defense is the floating missile tower.
It is cheap and effective and shoots both land and air but has low hp and is very weak versus frontal rushes.
Floating missile towers are good as support behind allied ships,that way they kite with their range but hide behind heavier units with more hp(in ba this is not possible since units cannot shoot through allied units).
Than comes the fhlt which is a powerfull support turret but can be outranged by destroyers with some micro and hover arty and are of course completely defenseless versus a surprise sub attack.
Now BA is different but i think relying on cheaper main sea units with a very niche submarine(and the torp defenses) that does not have a limited arch of fire(this actually results in poorer microability since you cant retreat you just have to stand there hope your sub wins)
Plus having a cheap main defense like a high llt like turret with more range(can be a cheapened fhlt) so it can shoot over your own lines of units might change sea and create a different experience that some might consider better(those that oppose the current one).
Also,pintle why do you never log in these days?
Re: BA Sea
Yan yesterday I played SA and I raped an entire sea base made by Shift/Spawn that had like 10 torp lauchers and dessies and radar with about 5 subs. Was hilarious to troll him but seems kind of op. He was in the water for 10 minutes unmolested and I was able to jump in with my com, spam out a few subs, and jump back out. Right click into his base, and the subs raped.
Re: BA Sea
If you mean that small supreme game,which i spectated than i don't think anything was wrong there.I'll give it another look.Tribulex wrote:Yan yesterday I played SA and I raped an entire sea base made by Shift/Spawn that had like 10 torp lauchers and dessies and radar with about 5 subs. Was hilarious to troll him but seems kind of op. He was in the water for 10 minutes unmolested and I was able to jump in with my com, spam out a few subs, and jump back out. Right click into his base, and the subs raped.
-
HectorMeyer
- Posts: 181
- Joined: 13 Jan 2009, 11:20
Re: BA Sea
- hoverlab buildable by comm, cheap as the other t1 labs.
- cruise missile hovercraft removed (or large price increase/buff, to make it like diplomat)
- anti air hovercraft able to shoot at ground, samson style
- new hovercraft with sonar and dephcharge launcher. expensive, slow, low hp. bad unit against ships, main role to kill defenseless subs and underwater structures
- if needed, hovers balanced against bots and vehicles to be less efficient across the board
- corvette removed
- slight HP buff/cost increase for scout ships (to make them more flash and less weasel like)
- large LOS buffs for ships across the board
- radar covering weapon range for most ships (destroyers better at early land bombardements)
- t2 engineers are subs
- t2 sealab is submerged (if possible)
- t2 torpedo launcher is submerged (or isn't it already?)
- cheap floating mex, more expensive submerged mex
- t1 has a floating guardian with the main purpose to defend against destroyers, cost around 600 metal
- t2 has a floating doomsdaymachine/annihilator with more range than cruisers and battleships
- T1 subs have more LOS, cloak or more speed.
- speed buff for amphibious units when underwater
- t2 missile ships have additional tacnuke/empmissile, or even better a new sub with these weapons
- t2 has new dragons teeth able to block subs
- mines work properly against ships and subs
- floating LLT (needed because of early hoverscout spam)
- no shields, no LRPCs, no nukes, no nanotowers, no adv underwaterfusions :)
- T1 airlab has a new torpedo plane or a depthcharge bomber, alternatively current torpedo plane moved to t1 airlab. all anti sea planes have sonar.
- greatly increased range of land based deptcharge launcher, at least annihilator range, + added sonar. accordingly more expensive.
main idea: since hovers have great land sea interaction, early sea game is dominated by hovers. quick and easy support by land players becomes possible.
removed t1 corvette emphasizes lack of general purpose, affordable, close range, tank-like units of t1 ships. this role is provided by hovers. expensive t1 destroyers lose to hovertank swarms, especially due to their inability to use their depcharge launcher against them. a last resort unit of t1 sea are the slightly buffed scout ships.
in 2v2 sea games, strategies like one players starting hover for fast, strong, affordable tanks providing the backbone of the army, supported by a ship player with sneaky subs, destroyer artillery support and t2 possibilities are viable.
drawback of hover start is lack of t2 possibilities.
ships dominate hovers when they reach t2, e.g. with the strong laser gun of the cruiser and of course the strong t2 eco.
better sea defenses makes it possible to set up positions and defense lines, setting the stage for huge late game seafights.
- cruise missile hovercraft removed (or large price increase/buff, to make it like diplomat)
- anti air hovercraft able to shoot at ground, samson style
- new hovercraft with sonar and dephcharge launcher. expensive, slow, low hp. bad unit against ships, main role to kill defenseless subs and underwater structures
- if needed, hovers balanced against bots and vehicles to be less efficient across the board
- corvette removed
- slight HP buff/cost increase for scout ships (to make them more flash and less weasel like)
- large LOS buffs for ships across the board
- radar covering weapon range for most ships (destroyers better at early land bombardements)
- t2 engineers are subs
- t2 sealab is submerged (if possible)
- t2 torpedo launcher is submerged (or isn't it already?)
- cheap floating mex, more expensive submerged mex
- t1 has a floating guardian with the main purpose to defend against destroyers, cost around 600 metal
- t2 has a floating doomsdaymachine/annihilator with more range than cruisers and battleships
- T1 subs have more LOS, cloak or more speed.
- speed buff for amphibious units when underwater
- t2 missile ships have additional tacnuke/empmissile, or even better a new sub with these weapons
- t2 has new dragons teeth able to block subs
- mines work properly against ships and subs
- floating LLT (needed because of early hoverscout spam)
- no shields, no LRPCs, no nukes, no nanotowers, no adv underwaterfusions :)
- T1 airlab has a new torpedo plane or a depthcharge bomber, alternatively current torpedo plane moved to t1 airlab. all anti sea planes have sonar.
- greatly increased range of land based deptcharge launcher, at least annihilator range, + added sonar. accordingly more expensive.
main idea: since hovers have great land sea interaction, early sea game is dominated by hovers. quick and easy support by land players becomes possible.
removed t1 corvette emphasizes lack of general purpose, affordable, close range, tank-like units of t1 ships. this role is provided by hovers. expensive t1 destroyers lose to hovertank swarms, especially due to their inability to use their depcharge launcher against them. a last resort unit of t1 sea are the slightly buffed scout ships.
in 2v2 sea games, strategies like one players starting hover for fast, strong, affordable tanks providing the backbone of the army, supported by a ship player with sneaky subs, destroyer artillery support and t2 possibilities are viable.
drawback of hover start is lack of t2 possibilities.
ships dominate hovers when they reach t2, e.g. with the strong laser gun of the cruiser and of course the strong t2 eco.
better sea defenses makes it possible to set up positions and defense lines, setting the stage for huge late game seafights.
Re: BA Sea
no wait, i would add amph crawling bomba to amph lab and let naval eng build t1 aa, thxWombat wrote:i wouldnt change anything
Re: BA Sea
@ Wombat
Why not leg naval eng build T2 AA? It can build T2 amphs.
Personally, I'd restrict the naval eng t T1 AA + Amph. If you want T2 amphs/AA, build the amphibious complex.
edit: I see you edited that.
Why not leg naval eng build T2 AA? It can build T2 amphs.
Personally, I'd restrict the naval eng t T1 AA + Amph. If you want T2 amphs/AA, build the amphibious complex.
edit: I see you edited that.
Re: BA Sea
@Hector
The cheap-T1-hovers thing has been tried. It was in AA 2.0ish. Ships became useless, and never built, because you could quickly dominate the difficult-to-defend ocean with subs and then rush up the shoreline.
edit: just noticed you added floating LLT. My problem is that at that point you've made L1 sea indistinguishable from land since hovers are basically floating tanks.
Balancing the power is really tough - both CA and BA have struggled with trying to keep hovers from being useless or OP.
Ditto the cheap-L1-long-ranged-defense. The old LR HLT got nerfed down to HLT range since they were impossible to crack - players would simply porc the enemy shoreline with LRHLTs and thus the enemy player would be unable to remove them until they built either a Guardian or an L2 artillery, which is prohibitive for your 600-metal floating Guardian.
The cheap-T1-hovers thing has been tried. It was in AA 2.0ish. Ships became useless, and never built, because you could quickly dominate the difficult-to-defend ocean with subs and then rush up the shoreline.
edit: just noticed you added floating LLT. My problem is that at that point you've made L1 sea indistinguishable from land since hovers are basically floating tanks.
Balancing the power is really tough - both CA and BA have struggled with trying to keep hovers from being useless or OP.
Ditto the cheap-L1-long-ranged-defense. The old LR HLT got nerfed down to HLT range since they were impossible to crack - players would simply porc the enemy shoreline with LRHLTs and thus the enemy player would be unable to remove them until they built either a Guardian or an L2 artillery, which is prohibitive for your 600-metal floating Guardian.
Last edited by Pxtl on 09 Mar 2010, 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
Re: BA Sea
Says the guy who started this thread about an eerily similar topic: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=223481v0ry_k1ng wrote:tl;dr
-
1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Re: BA Sea
yes, thats me, and I invite you to draw comparisons between the concision of my posts and those I tl;dr
[quote="HectorMeyer"]- hoverlab buildable by comm, cheap as the other t1 labs.
- cruise missile hovercraft removed (or large price increase/buff, to make it like diplomat)
- anti air hovercraft able to shoot at ground, samson style
- new hovercraft with sonar and dephcharge launcher. expensive, slow, low hp. bad unit against ships, main role to kill defenseless subs and underwater structures
- if needed, hovers balanced against bots and vehicles to be less efficient across the board
- corvette removed
- slight HP buff/cost increase for scout ships (to make them more flash and less weasel like)
- large LOS buffs for ships across the board
- radar covering weapon range for most ships (destroyers better at early land bombardements)
- t2 engineers are subs
- t2 sealab is submerged (if possible)
- t2 torpedo launcher is submerged (or isn't it already?)
- cheap floating mex, more expensive submerged mex
- t1 has a floating guardian with the main purpose to defend against destroyers, cost around 600 metal
- t2 has a floating doomsdaymachine/annihilator with more range than cruisers and battleships
- T1 subs have more LOS, cloak or more speed.
- speed buff for amphibious units when underwater
- t2 missile ships have additional tacnuke/empmissile, or even better a new sub with these weapons
- t2 has new dragons teeth able to block subs
- mines work properly against ships and subs
- floating LLT (needed because of early hoverscout spam)
- no shields, no LRPCs, no nukes, no nanotowers, no adv underwaterfusions :)
- T1 airlab has a new torpedo plane or a depthcharge bomber, alternatively current torpedo plane moved to t1 airlab. all anti sea planes have sonar.
- greatly increased range of land based deptcharge launcher, at least annihilator range, + added sonar. accordingly more expensive.
main idea: since hovers have great land sea interaction, early sea game is dominated by hovers. quick and easy support by land players becomes possible.
removed t1 corvette emphasizes lack of general purpose, affordable, close range, tank-like units of t1 ships. this role is provided by hovers. expensive t1 destroyers lose to hovertank swarms, especially due to their inability to use their depcharge launcher against them. a last resort unit of t1 sea are the slightly buffed scout ships.
in 2v2 sea games, strategies like one players starting hover for fast, strong, affordable tanks providing the backbone of the army, supported by a ship player with sneaky subs, destroyer artillery support and t2 possibilities are viable.
drawback of hover start is lack of t2 possibilities.
ships dominate hovers when they reach t2, e.g. with the strong laser gun of the cruiser and of course the strong t2 eco.
better sea defenses makes it possible to set up positions and defense lines, setting the stage for huge late game seafights.[/quote][quote="Gota"]Here is SA's sea balance.
It's simple.
Scout ships have 2 weapns.long range missiles and close range laser/plasma.
Scout boats also have high line of sight.
Submarines are pretty weak in terms of dps and hp for cost but sonar in SA is more expensive as well,as are torp launchers and offshore bombardment though they are still very good.
Subs cant stand versus destroyers for cost but subs cant get attacked by hover and are not spotted by radar.
Destroyers kill subs for cost and can bombard land areas but have very low line of sigh so without scout support they are blind.
Basicly the main design is pushing subs to the sideline while still giving them an interesting role as surprise attackers.
Making the base unit cheap so you can have a lot of it and losing one isn't that big of a deal and still allowing the scout ships to deal good dmg when raiding buildings and getting into close range.
Lightest sea defense is the floating missile tower.
It is cheap and effective and shoots both land and air but has low hp and is very weak versus frontal rushes.
Floating missile towers are good as support behind allied ships,that way they kite with their range but hide behind heavier units with more hp(in ba this is not possible since units cannot shoot through allied units).
Than comes the fhlt which is a powerfull support turret but can be outranged by destroyers with some micro and hover arty and are of course completely defenseless versus a surprise sub attack.
Now BA is different but i think relying on cheaper main sea units with a very niche submarine(and the torp defenses) that does not have a limited arch of fire(this actually results in poorer microability since you cant retreat you just have to stand there hope your sub wins)
Plus having a cheap main defense like a high llt like turret with more range(can be a cheapened fhlt) so it can shoot over your own lines of units might change sea and create a different experience that some might consider better(those that oppose the current one).
Also,pintle why do you never log in these days?[/quote][quote="Pxtl"]Here's my design (I should just implement this as a mutator and try it out, really):
Global changes
1) Depthcharges are uw-only and have blast-radius. Most DC units will become Torp units.
2) 20%ish across-the-board armor/firepower buff to better fight shoreline & hover units.
3) All DC weapons get sonar to match DC range.
4) All underwater units (incl. Sub Pen and Seaplane fac) are immune to surface-based weaponry short of nuclear weapons. Berthas can wipe-out a surface player, but can't kill an underwater player. Implement using a Lua gadget so it will apply to amphibious land units under water.
Immobiles:
1) Shoreline DC becomes Shoreline torp-launcher. No collidefriendly or avoidfriendly. Very long range so it can outrange all but the Destroyer and can protect nearby econ and shipyard. Slow projectile so scouts can evade.
2) Floating torp launcher becomes DC. Dirt-cheap anti-sub/anti-amphib LLT (in price and range terms, but with fierce firepower).... but useless against boats.
3) FHLT price x1.5 and gets enough firepower to rape anything that comes into it's short range. Is floating rape, but can be pwned from range. Functionally a mix between the HLT and the CA Antiswarmer. Effective, but only useful for chokepoints.
4) Add L2 Underwater nanotower, with similar bp/cost as L1 surface-tower. This means that, at L2, the economy can be fully submerged - BA L2 has ferocious buildpower/cost on the surface, but nothing underwater.
5) Add bob-up underwater immobile anti-nuke. Will surface to launch anti-nuke, but will return underwater. Same reason as 4.
L1 Mobiles:
1) Scout is the same, Con is the same
2) Corvette gets light speed-nerf and range-boost, switching weapon to more conventional gauss-like. Also get very-weak short-ranged DC. Now you can raid.
3) Destroyer becomes cut-price mobile guardian - raise price up to 1200ish and can no longer fight subs. Has switchable-trajectory and anti-naval boost so it really is a floating Guardian, but slightly shorter-ranged and mobile.
4) L1 Sub and Sub Killer can fire in any direction so it's no longer a micro-nightmare.
5) Add seaplane-lab to Beaver - this gives players a way to get into underwater L2 eco.
L2 Mobiles:
1) Sub killer becomes DC unit. It really is just for killing _subs_ (and other underwater targets).
2) Cruiser range down to HLT range, but retains beefy weaponry otherwise.
3) Add long-ranged (screamer?) SAM to missile ship, raise price. Remember you can also use Destroyers for high-traj shoreline attack.
4) Naval Combat Eng. gets L2 AA bot like the land-based combat eng.
Air:
1) Weak DC added to an L1 air unit - probably bombers, but whatever works. Thus L1 air can be used to raid metal extractors.
Hovers:
1) Similarly, put weak DC on rocket-artillery hovers... simply because that's the most inconvenient unit for the role.
In short, exaggerate the RPS-ness of the gameplay. Shoreline DCs provide all-purpose defense against mainline combat units (scouts can raid by raw speed, and artillery boats like the Destroyer can destroy it). Vettes can raid mexes. Subs pwn vettes since vette DC is weak - it's for demolitions, not combat. Subs get pwned by cheap, plentiful static DC launchers... but those floating DC launchers are helpless against boats. Destroyers become important fire-support boats but too expensive to use as your main combat vessel. Open water is very, very RPS-y with the triangle of vette/FloatDC/sub... but shorelines mean shoreline-launchers, so you either have to mass a large force of 'Vettes or save up for a destroyer or L2 artillery unit.
You don't really get a jack-of-all-trades spammable vessel like the Destroyer until the L2 Cruiser, and even that lacks the range to pwn the HLT or the shoreline-torp-launcher. So the L1 Destroyer remains useful for artillery until you bring out a battleship (or you use the Missile ship, but that now wears two hats as it also provides LRAA).
L1 subs (sub killers can't target surface untis) and destroyers are still important at L2.
Also, in late-game, you can survive the bertha-phase of the game by relying on underwater units and seaplanes (and whatever L2 subs you had before the berthas forced you to reclaim your L2 lab).[/quote]
[quote="HectorMeyer"]- hoverlab buildable by comm, cheap as the other t1 labs.
- cruise missile hovercraft removed (or large price increase/buff, to make it like diplomat)
- anti air hovercraft able to shoot at ground, samson style
- new hovercraft with sonar and dephcharge launcher. expensive, slow, low hp. bad unit against ships, main role to kill defenseless subs and underwater structures
- if needed, hovers balanced against bots and vehicles to be less efficient across the board
- corvette removed
- slight HP buff/cost increase for scout ships (to make them more flash and less weasel like)
- large LOS buffs for ships across the board
- radar covering weapon range for most ships (destroyers better at early land bombardements)
- t2 engineers are subs
- t2 sealab is submerged (if possible)
- t2 torpedo launcher is submerged (or isn't it already?)
- cheap floating mex, more expensive submerged mex
- t1 has a floating guardian with the main purpose to defend against destroyers, cost around 600 metal
- t2 has a floating doomsdaymachine/annihilator with more range than cruisers and battleships
- T1 subs have more LOS, cloak or more speed.
- speed buff for amphibious units when underwater
- t2 missile ships have additional tacnuke/empmissile, or even better a new sub with these weapons
- t2 has new dragons teeth able to block subs
- mines work properly against ships and subs
- floating LLT (needed because of early hoverscout spam)
- no shields, no LRPCs, no nukes, no nanotowers, no adv underwaterfusions :)
- T1 airlab has a new torpedo plane or a depthcharge bomber, alternatively current torpedo plane moved to t1 airlab. all anti sea planes have sonar.
- greatly increased range of land based deptcharge launcher, at least annihilator range, + added sonar. accordingly more expensive.
main idea: since hovers have great land sea interaction, early sea game is dominated by hovers. quick and easy support by land players becomes possible.
removed t1 corvette emphasizes lack of general purpose, affordable, close range, tank-like units of t1 ships. this role is provided by hovers. expensive t1 destroyers lose to hovertank swarms, especially due to their inability to use their depcharge launcher against them. a last resort unit of t1 sea are the slightly buffed scout ships.
in 2v2 sea games, strategies like one players starting hover for fast, strong, affordable tanks providing the backbone of the army, supported by a ship player with sneaky subs, destroyer artillery support and t2 possibilities are viable.
drawback of hover start is lack of t2 possibilities.
ships dominate hovers when they reach t2, e.g. with the strong laser gun of the cruiser and of course the strong t2 eco.
better sea defenses makes it possible to set up positions and defense lines, setting the stage for huge late game seafights.[/quote][quote="Gota"]Here is SA's sea balance.
It's simple.
Scout ships have 2 weapns.long range missiles and close range laser/plasma.
Scout boats also have high line of sight.
Submarines are pretty weak in terms of dps and hp for cost but sonar in SA is more expensive as well,as are torp launchers and offshore bombardment though they are still very good.
Subs cant stand versus destroyers for cost but subs cant get attacked by hover and are not spotted by radar.
Destroyers kill subs for cost and can bombard land areas but have very low line of sigh so without scout support they are blind.
Basicly the main design is pushing subs to the sideline while still giving them an interesting role as surprise attackers.
Making the base unit cheap so you can have a lot of it and losing one isn't that big of a deal and still allowing the scout ships to deal good dmg when raiding buildings and getting into close range.
Lightest sea defense is the floating missile tower.
It is cheap and effective and shoots both land and air but has low hp and is very weak versus frontal rushes.
Floating missile towers are good as support behind allied ships,that way they kite with their range but hide behind heavier units with more hp(in ba this is not possible since units cannot shoot through allied units).
Than comes the fhlt which is a powerfull support turret but can be outranged by destroyers with some micro and hover arty and are of course completely defenseless versus a surprise sub attack.
Now BA is different but i think relying on cheaper main sea units with a very niche submarine(and the torp defenses) that does not have a limited arch of fire(this actually results in poorer microability since you cant retreat you just have to stand there hope your sub wins)
Plus having a cheap main defense like a high llt like turret with more range(can be a cheapened fhlt) so it can shoot over your own lines of units might change sea and create a different experience that some might consider better(those that oppose the current one).
Also,pintle why do you never log in these days?[/quote][quote="Pxtl"]Here's my design (I should just implement this as a mutator and try it out, really):
Global changes
1) Depthcharges are uw-only and have blast-radius. Most DC units will become Torp units.
2) 20%ish across-the-board armor/firepower buff to better fight shoreline & hover units.
3) All DC weapons get sonar to match DC range.
4) All underwater units (incl. Sub Pen and Seaplane fac) are immune to surface-based weaponry short of nuclear weapons. Berthas can wipe-out a surface player, but can't kill an underwater player. Implement using a Lua gadget so it will apply to amphibious land units under water.
Immobiles:
1) Shoreline DC becomes Shoreline torp-launcher. No collidefriendly or avoidfriendly. Very long range so it can outrange all but the Destroyer and can protect nearby econ and shipyard. Slow projectile so scouts can evade.
2) Floating torp launcher becomes DC. Dirt-cheap anti-sub/anti-amphib LLT (in price and range terms, but with fierce firepower).... but useless against boats.
3) FHLT price x1.5 and gets enough firepower to rape anything that comes into it's short range. Is floating rape, but can be pwned from range. Functionally a mix between the HLT and the CA Antiswarmer. Effective, but only useful for chokepoints.
4) Add L2 Underwater nanotower, with similar bp/cost as L1 surface-tower. This means that, at L2, the economy can be fully submerged - BA L2 has ferocious buildpower/cost on the surface, but nothing underwater.
5) Add bob-up underwater immobile anti-nuke. Will surface to launch anti-nuke, but will return underwater. Same reason as 4.
L1 Mobiles:
1) Scout is the same, Con is the same
2) Corvette gets light speed-nerf and range-boost, switching weapon to more conventional gauss-like. Also get very-weak short-ranged DC. Now you can raid.
3) Destroyer becomes cut-price mobile guardian - raise price up to 1200ish and can no longer fight subs. Has switchable-trajectory and anti-naval boost so it really is a floating Guardian, but slightly shorter-ranged and mobile.
4) L1 Sub and Sub Killer can fire in any direction so it's no longer a micro-nightmare.
5) Add seaplane-lab to Beaver - this gives players a way to get into underwater L2 eco.
L2 Mobiles:
1) Sub killer becomes DC unit. It really is just for killing _subs_ (and other underwater targets).
2) Cruiser range down to HLT range, but retains beefy weaponry otherwise.
3) Add long-ranged (screamer?) SAM to missile ship, raise price. Remember you can also use Destroyers for high-traj shoreline attack.
4) Naval Combat Eng. gets L2 AA bot like the land-based combat eng.
Air:
1) Weak DC added to an L1 air unit - probably bombers, but whatever works. Thus L1 air can be used to raid metal extractors.
Hovers:
1) Similarly, put weak DC on rocket-artillery hovers... simply because that's the most inconvenient unit for the role.
In short, exaggerate the RPS-ness of the gameplay. Shoreline DCs provide all-purpose defense against mainline combat units (scouts can raid by raw speed, and artillery boats like the Destroyer can destroy it). Vettes can raid mexes. Subs pwn vettes since vette DC is weak - it's for demolitions, not combat. Subs get pwned by cheap, plentiful static DC launchers... but those floating DC launchers are helpless against boats. Destroyers become important fire-support boats but too expensive to use as your main combat vessel. Open water is very, very RPS-y with the triangle of vette/FloatDC/sub... but shorelines mean shoreline-launchers, so you either have to mass a large force of 'Vettes or save up for a destroyer or L2 artillery unit.
You don't really get a jack-of-all-trades spammable vessel like the Destroyer until the L2 Cruiser, and even that lacks the range to pwn the HLT or the shoreline-torp-launcher. So the L1 Destroyer remains useful for artillery until you bring out a battleship (or you use the Missile ship, but that now wears two hats as it also provides LRAA).
L1 subs (sub killers can't target surface untis) and destroyers are still important at L2.
Also, in late-game, you can survive the bertha-phase of the game by relying on underwater units and seaplanes (and whatever L2 subs you had before the berthas forced you to reclaim your L2 lab).[/quote]
-
HectorMeyer
- Posts: 181
- Joined: 13 Jan 2009, 11:20
Re: BA Sea
tbh I don't really understand that argument. Sub rush hardly ever works right now, and my idea wouldn't change that. If anything, it discourages sub rush since hover players can defend with "invulnerable" dephcharge hovers and also static torpedo launchers.Pxtl wrote:Ships became useless, and never built, because you could quickly dominate the difficult-to-defend ocean with subs and then rush up the shoreline.
Maybe I really underestimate the balancing problem though. I also never played the old AA versions, I think I am gonna take a look at them.
Right now hovers are balanced units, the only difference to my idea being their more expensive lab, and later to build. They don't dominate bots and vehs, since they are never built on land maps (except the occasional wombat rush) So i don't see why my idea should be principally impossible.
Making t1 ships useless is exactly my point, so early land sea interaction gets improved. Starting sea with ships should be highly discouraged (just like hover start on sea is highly discouraged right now), and only really possible in uncontested sea, or in the later game when entering sea to support contested sea. It's just an idea, some people might not like this concept for whatever reason, e.g. they like starting with t1 ships.
I also don't see a big problem with stronger sea defenses. Of course they pose a threat to land, but not more than land defenses also threaten sea. Cheap floating guardian might be dangerously OP, but right now sea has cheap mobile guardians already (read: destroyers) without them being unbalanced. Because hovers can change land/sea domains easily, walled beaches and early claims of sea shouldn't be a problem anymore, that's exactly the idea of early hovers.
Last edited by HectorMeyer on 09 Mar 2010, 17:02, edited 1 time in total.
Re: BA Sea
Whoops, brain-fart. I said "subs" and meant "hovers". I need coffee. Honestly, reading over your comments, it sounds like you should just remove T1 sea altogether.... or at least take it out of the Comm's buildlist.
-
HectorMeyer
- Posts: 181
- Joined: 13 Jan 2009, 11:20
Re: BA Sea
That's actually an interesting idea.
A compromise would be to keep T1 sea as it is now or make it even stronger than hovers. The remaining benefit for hovers would be the added flexibility.
It all boils down to that I think the investment for the hoverlab should be reduced, to allow an early participation of sea players on land and vice versa. Sea/land would be "one" "smooth" battlefield from the beginning.
A compromise would be to keep T1 sea as it is now or make it even stronger than hovers. The remaining benefit for hovers would be the added flexibility.
It all boils down to that I think the investment for the hoverlab should be reduced, to allow an early participation of sea players on land and vice versa. Sea/land would be "one" "smooth" battlefield from the beginning.
Re: BA Sea
If you want 1 smooth battlefield, you should play a land map maybe?
Re: BA Sea
@Hector - I actually think you're going the wrong way with stronger T1 sea defenses - why does Sea need an anti-destroyer plasma cannon? To kill a destroyer, use hovertanks or build your own destroyers.... or put up a Guardian nearby on land. Just cut the price on the T1 SY (but keep it out of the Comm's buildlist so it's not a 1st fac).
While you're at it, take the laser off the scout to better define its role as a support unit (spotting and AA), and convert the Conship into a mobile nanotower (higher workertime-to-space ratio, longer range, faster opening, lower speed, no buildlist). There, the T1 SY exists to support other T1 naval labs (amphib pen, air, or hovers). In a naval battle, the SY becomes your second (and even 3rd and 4th - boats are slow and SYs are cheap) lab *always*. You need it and it's cheap, but you can't start with it.
Don't bother with a Sea LLT, just give the sea MT the Samtruck's ground-targetting missiles. You've got scout-ships for dedicated AA.
While you're at it, take the laser off the scout to better define its role as a support unit (spotting and AA), and convert the Conship into a mobile nanotower (higher workertime-to-space ratio, longer range, faster opening, lower speed, no buildlist). There, the T1 SY exists to support other T1 naval labs (amphib pen, air, or hovers). In a naval battle, the SY becomes your second (and even 3rd and 4th - boats are slow and SYs are cheap) lab *always*. You need it and it's cheap, but you can't start with it.
Don't bother with a Sea LLT, just give the sea MT the Samtruck's ground-targetting missiles. You've got scout-ships for dedicated AA.