We should have some mapmaking guidelines

[YokoZar]

BA should have a mapmaking guide, specifically for giving good information about what wind and tidal levels are appropriate or standard. For instance there's very little difference between 0-5 wind and 7-7 wind as at both levels solar is still better.

Similarly, I've seen quite a few maps with tidal/wind levels so high they become more efficient than advanced fusions. I doubt this was intentional on the map authors part.

[Beherith]

mapmaking guidelines

I refrained from posting in prev thread about this, but now I have no choice: do not utter these horrible words again.

[YokoZar]

mapmaking guidelines

I refrained from posting in prev thread about this, but now I have no choice: do not utter these horrible words again.

I don't mean for the actual layout of the map and such; that's up to creativity of the map author. I just mean provide some information to help mapmakers understand why 8 average wind, 9 average wind, 10 average wind, and 11 average wind are so massively different.

[det]

If you follow this line of logic through you will end up doing what CA did, that is, overriding wind values on all maps.

[JohannesH]

OMG wind values affect gameplay? We should also tell the mapmakers that kbots and vehicles have different slope tolerances.

[el_matarife]

I'm still in the "there should be a mod option to override minimum and maximum wind, tidal, gravity, and yield of all metal spots" camp, though I think it would be better if you could set those values to whatever you want not just norm them to the BA "Standard". I know some people think map mapmakers would have a fit, but this is about more than "fixing" maps, its about enabling more play styles.

[YokoZar]

OMG wind values affect gameplay? We should also tell the mapmakers that kbots and vehicles have different slope tolerances.

Ok, off the top of your head what windspeed and tidal ratio makes wind as good as tidal? How much until it's between advanced solar and fusion?

There's no need to act like I'm being snooty here, even I have to look these things up and do actual math to figure this out.

[el_matarife]

I built a Google spreadsheet that did the math a few years ago, I should go dust it off and make it available.

Also some gravity settings can make HLTs outrange T1 artillery which is a big balance change too.

[Neddie]

If you follow this line of logic through you will end up doing what CA did, that is, overriding wind values on all maps.

That is not at all a logical consequence of considering guidelines and hoping to discuss what different values and different elements offer to the game. CA went that direction through the choices of individuals, logic played no inherent part in the resultant overrides and responsibility cannot merely be waived in this manner.

[hunterw]

doesnt matter what kind of guidelines you set, maps will get played if maps are fun, and that depends on every single criteria you can think of.

[Neddie]

doesnt matter what kind of guidelines you set, maps will get played if maps are fun, and that depends on every single criteria you can think of.

And many often not.

[CarRepairer]

If you follow this line of logic through you will end up doing what CA did, that is, overriding wind values on all maps.

That is not at all a logical consequence of considering guidelines and hoping to discuss what different values and different elements offer to the game. CA went that direction through the choices of individuals, logic played no inherent part in the resultant overrides and responsibility cannot merely be waived in this manner.

7-7 wind

It was hunterw's Tundra that began the chain of events that inspired me to just do it. He was completely polite and open to making extra versions of his maps with CA wind values despite how ridiculous that would be to request of someone, and fill up sites with redundant maps.

Neddie, you really ought to re-examine your attachment to these petty little SMD numbers. Your words above just seem so angry and negative over what I see as nothing and I don't feel, in the least, that I trampled over anyone's creative expression in changing two measly numbers. It almost feels like you're expressing hate. I mean, really?.

I'm still in the "there should be a mod option to override minimum and maximum wind, tidal, gravity, and yield of all metal spots", though I think it would be better if you could set those values to whatever you want not just norm them to the BA "Standard". I know some people think map mapmakers would have a fit, but this is about more than "fixing" maps, its about enabling more play styles.

Yet again I have to tell el-matarife that Simpsons already did it but he likes to speak as though CA doesn't exist and he is the first to come up with ideas that will cause the sky to fall. El-Matarife: It was many months ago that it was done in CA and you see that the world continues to turn and no maps have spontaneously combusted.

[Beherith]

If you follow this line of logic through you will end up doing what CA did, that is, overriding wind values on all maps.

It was ok until wind only had altitude bonus, which was a very nice feature, but the normalization plain and simple pissed me off. Most of the popular maps actually had quite well thought out wind values.

Noobs dont usually make maps, if they do and they suck, its 99% not because of fucked up wind values.
Guess who makes your most played maps today? Hunterw and Artturi. Both excellent players, who have very good concepts on what constitutes fun gameplay, yet you think you know better than them.

If it was just a mod option, to be put on the 1% of maps that actually need it, I wouldnt say a word, but your flat out discarding a very important and conscious choice made by mappers.

I remember getting yelled at alot for using typemaps as well, even though everyone seemed to forget that DSD also has one. People said my typemaps break balance.

At one point I even got rided for making the slopes and height differences not in the taste of a game dev. This was also prefaced with: your breaking my precious balance.

Well guess what, all these things are there to give us the joy of fighting on varied battlefields, where each one lends itself to a different strategy, and yes it does make some units more viable. Maps are supposed to change balance a bit and change around gameplay.

Ignoring this, like some mod devs did, just leads to them playing on CCR for a month...

With that all said, there are already very good general guidelines in place, namely in the map tutorials. If you read them - and you probably have to if your gonna make a map - then you will see them clear and simple.

[Wombat]

yokozars life is all about wind cost compared to fus etc. dude give us a break... everyone who think and got calculator will know that himself

[YokoZar]

yokozars life is all about wind cost compared to fus etc. dude give us a break... everyone who think and got calculator will know that himself

Yes, this sort of thing interests me from a game design perspective, which is why I make threads like this and provide suggestions.


I don't think we'd get a very good game if we didn't think about this sort of thing.

[det]

If you follow this line of logic through you will end up doing what CA did, that is, overriding wind values on all maps.

That is not at all a logical consequence of considering guidelines and hoping to discuss what different values and different elements offer to the game. CA went that direction through the choices of individuals, logic played no inherent part in the resultant overrides and responsibility cannot merely be waived in this manner.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

The BA mapmaking guide is just a two page spread with a picture of CCR on one page and DSD on the other

[Pxtl]

Alternate solution: make a gadget that simply removes the wind-gen from the build-menu on maps where you'd have to be a freaking idiot to build one. That would stop the problem the first time a player plays DSD and doesn't read the wind.

Bing! No more noobtrap.

[det]

Alternate solution: make a gadget that simply removes the wind-gen from the build-menu on maps where you'd have to be a freaking idiot to build one. That would stop the problem the first time a player plays DSD and doesn't read the wind.

Bing! No more noobtrap.

CA used to do this. You are at step 1!

[aegis]

put solar panels on the windmill!