Gameplay and Graphics. CALL TO ARMS!

[smoth]

Recently a certain individual has made the assumption that I some how value graphics over gameplay. Now, since this incorrect statement has been made before as with many other instances I have decided to write a general thread about the relevance of graphic discussions in this forum.

No one person can argue that the TA content is attractive or even mildly interesting. The content was created with serious limitations on memory and poly count. They created said content, which at the time was pretty advanced for it's time. However, in this day and age the content is dated and in serious need of replacement. Several people over my long history on this forum have attacked me for my apparently outward concern for graphics over gameplay.

For it's time TA was run of the mill unexceptional in the way of looks. What it did offer however was large scale battles, base automation and several never before seen innovations to the rts genre. Ta was very impressive and it's ease of modification produced 10 years of content. Now, Spring's TA mods are impressive improvements and advancements in the gameplay of the original ta unfortunately, graphics which work in the TA engine DO NO work in a true 3d engine as well.

This brings me to the reason why I always seem to be going on and on about how ugly things are. With a forum full of self appointed experts how many of you step up the the plate and do something? A hand full does, others are working on other areas, OPINIONS are in no way lacking though. This attitude of telling volunteers how we will do things creates a schism between content creators and the players who have demands. Yet so few of these know it alls contribute, in fact many of them deride those of us who look to improve things.

Well guess what, we have gameplay

So it is time to stop acting like that isn't a consideration. We do not have graphics, what we as a community have are a bunch of stolen models which do not even look good! They are subpar and laughable to anyone who has any artistic talent. OH BUT THAT IS JUST GRAPHICAL TALK, well guess what, we have 10 years of TA balance and rebalanced. I think GAMEPLAY is covered, I THINK that people need to realize that these models are not going to cut it.

A few people in the community have stepped up to help in the efforts to work on models and content, to that small few, I thank you. To the rest of you, pull your heads out of your collective asses and realize that it is time to address the graphic issue. Spring is a great engine with ugly models from a 1998 game being used by most mods. There are tons of gameplay discussions but what people fail to recognize is that graphics are a part of gameplay. Any idiot wants to argue that can shut the fuck up an go play atari.

Graphics convey the FEEL of a game, whether it is realistic, fantasy or cartoonish. They convey the shapes, forms, function and faction of a unit. Graphics represent the explosions, the nature of the weapons, the very world the units interact with. So, get off your rocker, stop talking about the old days and this is good enough and step up and help replace the content. Even if it is a shitty model, do it anyway, it may get replaced later, and if it is, be glad that you do not have to be embarrassed by early mistakes. JUST DO IT, HELP OUT.

I cannot help with the ta content replacement, I have my own work to do. However, those of you who are sitting around just nitpicking, you know it all right? Then get off of your ass and help! Help make the TA content what it deserves. If you cannot model, learn to uvmap, if you cannot model learn to texture but help! There are tons of projects out there willing to accept help and too many people asking for someone else to show up and do it.

MAN UP!

[Pressure Line]

I endorse this product and/or service.

Part of it is the [bizzare imo] assumption that 'looks good' and 'plays good' are mutually exclusive. Possibly partly due to the somewhat screwy balance of the early sexed up versions of CA? I don't know.

FLAME ON!

[rattle]

I hope it is clear that this is not about good graphics = next generation graphics.

[smoth]

nah good graphics as in better then 10 year old out dated crap.

[bobthedinosaur]

3do ftw

[Neddie]

3do ftw

Please, please no.

[Snipawolf]

Such horrid quality >_<

I tried 3do and, honestly, it was so much worse than s3o and normal texturing.

[rattle]

3DOs can look good, good examples being Talon and GoK. However UV mapped models are prefered for Spring and it's easier once you know how to properly unwrap a model.

[Forboding Angel]

If I had to use 3do I would shoot myself... no lie.

[manored]

In matters of visuals I prefer to have detailed graphics than good graphics... like, I prefer to have buildings being visually constructed than to have then look good upon completion :)

The idea if the detailing of events is that if you are playing a slow-paced game it gives you something to watch while you wait...

[TheRegisteredOne]

CALL TO ARMS

that was a bad spin-off

[Forboding Angel]

ITT, lulz.

[KDR_11k]

In matters of visuals I prefer to have detailed graphics than good graphics... like, I prefer to have buildings being visually constructed than to have then look good upon completion :)

Well that's not really an issue.

[Sleksa]

No one person can argue that the TA content is attractive or even mildly interesting. The content was created with serious limitations on memory and poly count. They created said content, which at the time was pretty advanced for it's time. However, in this day and age the content is dated and in serious need of replacement.

I agree that its outdated and there have been a lot of progress, but TA is a classic. It doesnt need to be replaced >:[

For it's time TA was run of the mill unexceptional in the way of looks. What it did offer however was large scale battles, base automation and several never before seen innovations to the rts genre. Ta was very impressive and it's ease of modification produced 10 years of content.

100% agree, and the large scale battles were (accidentally or purposefully) very well done gameplaywise, compared to supcom's.

Now, Spring's TA mods are impressive improvements and advancements in the gameplay of the original ta

I dont think any spring TA mod is better or worse than the original TA, they just use different approaches to the gameplay.

So it is time to stop acting like that isn't a consideration. We do not have graphics, what we as a community have are a bunch of stolen models which do not even look good! They are subpar and laughable to anyone who has any artistic talent. OH BUT THAT IS JUST GRAPHICAL TALK, well guess what, we have 10 years of TA balance and rebalanced. I think GAMEPLAY is covered, I THINK that people need to realize that these models are not going to cut it.

What you fail to realize is that those 10 years of work have been community work, not commercial. People mod and fix and redo things for the love of the game, not to ca$h people in to play it ~~

A few people in the community have stepped up to help in the efforts to work on models and content, to that small few, I thank you. To the rest of you, pull your heads out of your collective asses and realize that it is time to address the graphic issue. Spring is a great engine with ugly models from a 1998 game being used by most mods. There are tons of gameplay discussions but what people fail to recognize is that graphics are a part of gameplay.

Spring is a engine, afaik people can do games on it however they like to. Its your loss if you cant stand the gfx of some mods.

Any idiot wants to argue that can shut the fuck up an go play atari.

Or you could just the fuck up and go play crysis and masturbate on the cool gfx ^__^

[[Krogoth86]]

No one person can argue that the TA content is attractive or even mildly interesting. The content was created with serious limitations on memory and poly count.

I disagree on that to some degree. Well the first thing to say is that I really like the design of TA in general so the basis for all the units is a good one. Well you now say the units all look crappy and well you're of course right and with your arguments of a 1997 tech standard and so on you make a valid point. You also miss something though...

On the one side you rarely have any unit in a close-up and on the other side it's very much about imagination. The first point is easy to explain: You'll never move your camera really close to your units (while actually playing a normal game you want to win) so many of the lacking details just won't get noticed because of the unit's size on screen. The second point is a bit more complicated. Well to explain this maybe some experiences I had when making MA - when looking closer at some units / buildings in the 3dobuilder I really had some enlightening "Omg I didn't know it looks that shitty!" moments. Why would I have something like this as I played OTA back then and Spring afterwards for years? The reason is quite simple: As you don't really have any close-ups from the units your imagination pops in and sort of "adds" some details.

It probably has something to do with having had nice moments with the unit i.e. you remember how to kick someone's ass with your Flash spam or bombard them to oblivion with your Tremors. So you have that "cool" factor on many things which together with another thing somehow blanks out the actual bad visual appearance. I'm sure you read some Wii vs XBox vs PS3 discussion as you can find them anywhere. I very often read things like "Lol omg poor Wii it just has Mario 64 graphics - who wants that?". I think we don't have to discuss that the Wii's graphics are totally superior to the N64's one but here still something is shown and that is in your memory you don't really remember how things looked i.e. how many polys are here and what texture resolution there. You remember things like having had fun and another thing is that the imagination once agains comes in filling the graphical vacancies and making it look good...

Another minor thing to mention is that many units in recent TA mods no longer are Cavedog's units but reworked versions with more details and better look so it in fact isn't that bad and with the recent detail level of the 3dos you have a nice detail level per ingame-size which for many people's imagination seems to be enough to do its job quite well...

You also should at least mention the fact that the 3do models are quite friendly for older PCs although the basic meshes and textures aren't Spring's bottleneck imo so the performance difference isn't really that big because of that...

Graphics represent the explosions, the nature of the weapons, the very world the units interact with.

Well I don't know when you did play a more recent TA mod under active development because when speaking of weapons and explosions there widely are new and more appealing effects used and their number is growing...

[Otherside]

CA Gameplay and Graphics = GG :]

[[Krogoth86]]

Well I forgot to mention something and it also appears on Otherside's 2nd screenshot:

A big downside of the s3os to my mind still is that the mip-mapping level rises like hell even when being not so for away from a unit. Shows nicely on that Instigator which is closer on that picture than you'll ever have it ingame and it already looks totally washed out. Because of the slightly cartoony and contrastive look of the 3do textures this problem isn't that bad with them (i.e. they lack details in close-ups but don't really look that much washed out on distance)...

You really should have influence on that like a slider in the Spring settings that controls at what distance you want to switch mip-mapping levels...

[Otherside]

krog it only rilly happens on the gator (mr d's first vehicle) the others dont have the visibility problem

it just shows mr D's improved

[KDR_11k]

I agree that its outdated and there have been a lot of progress, but TA is a classic. It doesnt need to be replaced >:[

So why are you playing Spring, a replacement for TA, then?

[clericvash]

I agree that its outdated and there have been a lot of progress, but TA is a classic. It doesnt need to be replaced >:[

So why are you playing Spring, a replacement for TA, then?

Correction why do you play TA based mods, spring itself is an engine

And to Smoth, this is why people like Mr. D have stepped up to create much better looking units :)