Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 31 Jan 2006, 21:00

WRONG FORUM, WRONG THREAD

Post in the AI forum. Stop hi-Jacking.

forbidin · Post by **forbidin** » 31 Jan 2006, 22:58

Dunno about the mavs being lv 1. Those things are power house. With some great micro 3 mavs can go a long way.

Perhaps make the zeus and pyro lv 1 instead and leave the can as lv 2, only give it a range buff.

I think vehicles are fine as is. If you want to add some oomph to it, perhaps make the panther a lv 1 tank and the core's flame thrower tank a lv 1 tank like FA said.

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 31 Jan 2006, 23:45

Cyberwal · Post by **Cyberwal** » 01 Feb 2006, 00:47

As it was stated before, you can't really start with vehicles because the cons move so slowly... Or am I doing something wrong, and what?

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 01 Feb 2006, 01:03

ok guys you are missing the point.

You CANNOT mass produce, mavs, cans, reapers, or raiders on a level 1 economy. If you try you would get smashed.

The point here is, caydr wants to extend level 1. The only way to do that that I can see is give lv 1 a more powerful unit that you barely have the resources for.

BTW mav are so easy to kill it's not funny. Mavs don't deal with thuds and storms very well.

Like I said, it would be damn near impossible to mass produce these units on a level 1 economy. Unlesss you play speed metal a lot.

Another idea is to give lv 1 a mex that produces 1/2 of what a moho mex does. But then, why would you build the normal mex any more?

The extention of level 1 depends on resources, unfortunately the more resources you have the more it makes you want to tech up.

Even if the gap is made larger, I will still have one lone bot building a lv 2 early in the game. I need my moho's/

Besides, it was you guys that suggested giving lv 1 a more powerful unit.

Zues and pyro would be great. They both suck donkey balls in the lv2 category.

I agree with that forbidin said. I think that would work quite well.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 01 Feb 2006, 01:05

Cyberwal wrote:As it was stated before, you can't really start with vehicles because the cons move so slowly... Or am I doing something wrong, and what?

You can. With arm it works very well. Core is at a bit of a disadvantage though because there is no assist vehicle like arm has.

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 01 Feb 2006, 04:41

ok guys you are missing the point.

You CANNOT mass produce, mavs, cans, reapers, or raiders on a level 1 economy. If you try you would get smashed.

The point here is, caydr wants to extend level 1. The only way to do that that I can see is give lv 1 a more powerful unit that you barely have the resources for.

That's also missing the point. It's like saying... what this game needs is a krogoth killer that you can only make if you have over 100x moho mexxes and 200 fusions.

The point of keeping lvl1 in longer isn't about making more powerful lvl1 vehicles, it's about keeping lvl2 units from making lvl1 worthless.

Lvl1 will stay in longer if:

1. lvl2 units are very expensive and require a heavy economy to make in large numbers.

2. lvl 2 factories are a major investment and require a serious decision between going level 2 and staying level 1.

3. lvl2 units do not override lvl1 units in their tactical value. Level 2 units have special attack and tactical methods that are not represented in lvl1 units. (i.e. the dominator has no level1 counterpart, the slasher has no lvl2 counterpart)

4. lvl1 units are capable of carrying out successful attacks against lvl2 units when deployed in high numbers. So metal for metal, energy for energy, they are still a valid investment.

5. A lvl1 economy is sustainable in a lvl2 environment if handled correctly.

6. Lvl1 has additional advantages such as lower energy consumption in defenses (an ahnillator uses alot of e to fire, HLTs and LLTs can run off of a trickle), higher variety of structures, units with tactical advantages of being small (greater climb angle, higher mobility, etc.)

The above factors will help lvl1 stay in the game longer. Some are already true in AA. SOme could be improved upon.

Chocapic · Post by **Chocapic** » 01 Feb 2006, 05:29

i think all that lvl1 to lvl2 stuff depends a lot on the players and in the way they want to play...
Ive seen 2 vets playing a game and only making the lvl2 switch at the 25 min mark or something like that because it was the only time where they could (doing that early would have cost one of them the game..).
Of course at a 4v4 game i can allways hide behind a mate porcing and make a fast switch and own the guy at my front with a little support..
All and all i think its pretty fine as it is and the switch really depends much on the players and on the type of play being done on the field, than really in what the units should cost and stuff like that

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 01 Feb 2006, 05:42

tanelorn

what you are describing is xta.

BTW the kroggie thing makes no sense.

BTW lv 1 is never useless.

I use thuds and storms all the way to the end of the game. I never stop building them.

You're just... wrong.

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 01 Feb 2006, 06:06

Never underestimate the value of cannon fodder.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 01 Feb 2006, 06:40

well thuds in numbers pack one hell of a punch, and if you send your lv 1 in before the lv 2 they do an awesome job of softening up defence lines.

storms and thuds can take out an anni pretty easy. You just have to have enough and get close. The anni is notoriously bad at shooting things 3 feet away.

Cyberwal · Post by **Cyberwal** » 01 Feb 2006, 14:53

Forboding Angel wrote:well thuds in numbers pack one hell of a punch, and if you send your lv 1 in before the lv 2 they do an awesome job of softening up defence lines.

storms and thuds can take out an anni pretty easy. You just have to have enough and get close. The anni is notoriously bad at shooting things 3 feet away.

Also they can be a very nice distraction

forbidin · Post by **forbidin** » 01 Feb 2006, 19:58

Yes, I always enjoy lv 1 units. Stumpies work surprising well taking out anni forces and pit bulls. Flashes are great for killing extremely slow units (and also great for taking out thuds and rocko swarms). Thuds/hammers are great for weakening defense and enemy troops. If they can soak the damage of bulldogs to enable ur mavs to get in close, those bulldogs dont stand a chance.

Of course, thuds + bombers work great too.

Only problem with making labs more expensive is that someone can make some cheap lv 1 bombers and kill ur 5k metal investment with like 1k metal worth of bombers. Of course if you porc up a storm with anti bomber turrets then u killed ur expansion.

Personally, like I said before, I love it how it is now. Lv2 isn't so overwhelming compared to lv 1 as it is in xta, so even if someone goes fast lv 2, you can still counter with lv 1's and beat them back. Mastering when it is a good time to go lv 2 is something we have to learn.

If anything, I suggest perhaps adding some more lv 1 units. I think theh TAUCP or UTASP or whatever has like 1-2 units that you can add. 2 that come in my mind is the Arm Exxec and the Core Rogue. Both lv 1 kbots. Perhaps it is worth looking into?

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 01 Feb 2006, 22:05

Rogue was in AA a long time ago, but it's got a broken script or something. Exxec is a possibility but it's basically just an upgraded warrior, so why not just upgrade the warrior in the first place?

I want levelers to be the counterpart for warrior. This is how it was designed, and it worked pretty well in OTA but various things like ground deformation, steeper slopes, and so forth combine to make levelers all but useless.

Decimator · Post by **Decimator** » 01 Feb 2006, 22:59

Eh? Levellers are wonderful tanks, I'd take them over warriors any day.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 01 Feb 2006, 23:00

I realised something while speccing a divided shores game:

Why aren't there floating nano turrets? Or could nano turrets be built on water?

Chocapic · Post by **Chocapic** » 02 Feb 2006, 00:18

Aun wrote:I realised something while speccing a divided shores game:

Why aren't there floating nano turrets? Or could nano turrets be built on water?

lvl2 con subs should do the trick for ya

their nano power is surprisingly strong

Isaactoo · Post by **Isaactoo** » 02 Feb 2006, 00:19

That would be nice, it's always awkward to line shores with nanotowers and haveing to build shipyards near shore...and I see no reason why it isn't possible.

Lvl. 1 and Lvl. 2 are good as it is in my opinion.
How-ever, if you wanted to encourage players to stay at lvl. 1 longer, making adv. labs cost more in energy would do it...but then please make ordinary mex's extract more, that is the major reason I go to lvl. 2 as quick as I can.

EDIT: Construction subs are good, but it's hard to have more than 2 guarding a plant and still allow big ships to get out.

smokingwreckage · Post by **smokingwreckage** » 02 Feb 2006, 10:58

Nano toweres, ironically, patrol better than other, more mobile units, in Spring.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 02 Feb 2006, 18:00

the con subs nano ability is only surpassed by the commander

caydr, I believe that adding more lv 1 units may be the way to go on this one. The hard part is finding lv 1 units that actually serve a purpose. I would really dig the dragons tooth kbot. Those are so much fun :D

BTW kudos on the storm and thud changes in 1.42 I use them in mixed groups now and they rock ass.

Why don't you ever come on ts anymore? Drexions is down. Mine is up all of the time. Did I never give you the address?

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]