Spring Network

[AF]

You mean you missed the tea party? It was my understanding everybody had heard

[zwzsg]

Engine | Info | Files | Ladder | Replays | Quotes | Widgets | Media | Development | Documentation | More

Lots of items, and not any "Download" or "Get Started". I had to look at it four times to find "Files", and let's be honest, redirecting to JobJol frontpage is not that user friendly.

Oh. I see now. I'm supposed to ignore all those items, and instead click on CA or the CA picture. And there there is a big easy to find download button. Which links to a dead end, but meh, I suppose it's not finished. Except I doubt there will ever be a CA installer, because CA update so fast that the CA team relies more on SpringDownloader to autoupdate CA than big ol' stiff installers.

I'd say to move the list of items I quoted below, so they're still present but don't look as much as the links you have to click.

[Jazcash]

Engine | Info | Files | Ladder | Replays | Quotes | Widgets | Media | Development | Documentation | More

Lots of items, and not any "Download" or "Get Started". I had to look at it four times to find "Files", and let's be honest, redirecting to JobJol frontpage is not that user friendly.

Oh. I see now. I'm supposed to ignore all those items, and instead click on CA or the CA picture. And there there is a big easy to find download button. Which links to a dead end, but meh, I suppose it's not finished. Except I doubt there will ever be a CA installer, because CA update so fast that the CA team relies more on SpringDownloader to autoupdate CA than big ol' stiff installers.

I'd say to move the list of items I quoted below, so they're still present but don't look as much as the links you have to click.

Those links are just sample links, not final.

[AF]

Theres a little confusion in that you have a menu at the top with games, then a smaller menu with links elsewhere underneath, then a big thumbnail based list under that, it isnt intuitive

[zwzsg]

It's just that the placment of these links make them look like important links about CA, while they are just general Spring links thrown in for reference but not meant to be clicked first. So move them further down.

[Jazcash]

Theres a little confusion in that you have a menu at the top with games, then a smaller menu with links elsewhere underneath, then a big thumbnail based list under that, it isnt intuitive

Yeah, I agree, but the one intention of this network is also to attract players to the actual games. The games are the most important as without ever playing any of the games, it's unlikely people would want to check out the other projects. I'll add a label of some sort to the external links soon. Thanks for feedback.

[MidKnight]

Excellent work so far!

A request: Could the CA site video be changed to something more representative of the game, like this?

[knorke]

I think for new players it is very confusing to be confronted with games that are only .sd7 or .sdz - files.

Many new players who are introduced to Spring by using the SpringDownloader multiplayer lobby do not have this issue. It downloads and installs games when they join battle rooms.

How easy would it be to make specific game variants of Spring Downloader? For example, the installer would install Spring Downloader, The latest version of the Spring Engine, the game it's related with, auto join the game related channel in the lobby and download anything else specifically for that game (Add filters for that game only etc).

If somebody could just make a bunch of SD specific installers for each game that would be coolio. It would make the installation process more consistent. If the whole process was automated it would be extra epic. For example, when a dev updates his game, it updates on SD. If somebody downloads an old version of SD on the sites, it would update to the latest version.

Isnt it already like this? With Springdownloader there is no need anymore to know about .sdz files. I think it also updates by itself. Just the actual lobbypart lacks compared to sl/tasclient.
Problem is that if players download a "Gundam Installer" there will 99% of the time nobody to play with and spring singleplayer is meh save for some experiments. Remember HalfLife (I think quake 3 too) with the "change mod" menu? Worked just fine.
It isnt so bad if you just download an installer that then downloads the games as needed. Today with steam players are more used to that system than ever?

[Jazcash]

Excellent work so far!

A request: Could the CA site video be changed to something more representative of the game, like this?

Well, I was going to make my own video but thought it might take too long so maybe I'll come back to the that in the future. I don't really want to use a video like the one you posted as it shows OTA units, ugly map edges and other things. I'll try and work on some of my own video soon.

[zwzsg]

How easy would it be to make specific game variants of Spring Downloader? For example, the installer would install Spring Downloader, The latest version of the Spring Engine, the game it's related with, auto join the game related channel in the lobby and download anything else specifically for that game (Add filters for that game only etc).

I'm wary of automatic systems fetching lastest version of each component for three reasons:

1) The more component from different place you download, the more you risk having the whole package breaks because one site closed, moved, or changed protocol. If you think permalink and download systems are permanent, you're delusional. On a more personal level, I hate it when I download an installer and then finds out it's only an autoupdater that has to talk to a distant site to fetch gigs and gigs of data. But as long as it works all alone and there's only one progress bar, I can withstand it. But when you start having one installer running three different installer, and insisting on filling my machine with all kind of framework and crap I don't know about, then I get worried and might cancel the process.

2) Mods and AI are not always compatible with new Spring version! When a new version of the engine comes out, half of time it breaks stuff in my mod and I have to spend a week to code workarounds. AI that used to work don't work anymore. And sometimes it forces me to do ugly things, like including both newest Spring engine exe and previous Spring engine exe in my installer, cause newest would be unusable for single player. If you think every mod or AI or widget that works now will also work with future engine version, you're delusional.

3) I don't want a one-size fit alls installer. I bet you're still thinking that to play a game, all you need is a /mods/ file, and optionnaly the recommended /maps/ , and then everybody should just use SD to start a game. But if I made my own KP installer, that's precisely because I wanted more than that. I doubt your generic installer will handle installing lastest AF's AI with up-to-date config (a seemingly simple process that neither me nor AF can perform). I'd be surprised if your generic installer copied my special startscript to ingame menu, then create a shortcut to it with the proper icon. My external single player launcher wouldn't fit in your scheme either. Let's not even talk about how I want my games to be installed with a specific set of widget, you'd probably think that mods should include all needed widgets and disable the rest, or that a link to widget database is sufficient.

In short, making a proper installer requires lots bug fixing and maintenance. Automation saves times, but you still need human supervision to check everything's right, and when it's not, then you have to manually fiddle.

If you don't, you'll end up with a system nice on paper, but that will fail in practice. Sure, you'll be able to blame the game dev for not following your guidelines, the file hosters for removing something your relied upon, the community for not playing along, the end-user for being to dump to fix it by running a small commandline, or whatever other intermediary, but in the end, it will still be a failure.

[Forboding Angel]

I have a little php script that will grab the newest file in a directory that is perfect for always grabbing the latest version of a file, whether it be installer, sd7 sdz etc. You just point it to the directory/script.php and it grabs the file and initiates the download. I used to use it with good results on the evo site and the spring module updater when it was around.

[zwzsg]

Sure, but does your php script play a little skirmish to check everything works fine? Is it on the lookout for any graphical or gameplay bugs introduced by changes in the engine?

[Jazcash]

I can understand why you wouldn't want to use a SD-like system which I suppose is the reason you made the installer for KP. That's fine, I'll link to the KP installer on a KP site, but for the other projects who don't need a system different to SD then they might as well use the SD installer.

I'm sure SD will support things like AI's and things in the future. It already supports widgets, maps and mods.

[Forboding Angel]

I'm sure SD will support things like ... maps and mods.

But not their options, which is a pretty big deal in some cases.

Sure, but does your php script play a little skirmish to check everything works fine? Is it on the lookout for any graphical or gameplay bugs introduced by changes in the engine?

What does that have to do with anything being discussed here? The point is that the dev can have a single dir where he makes his releases. Php script points towards latest file in the directory. If it's buggy, well then that would be the fault of the dev wouldn't it?.

[zwzsg]

What does that have to do with anything being discussed here?

Here was discussed using SD to make an installer for every mod. I'm saying that no, you need manual quality control and fiddling. I'm saying that no, downloading the lastest file is only a fraction of an installer's worth.

The point is that the dev can have a single dir where he makes his releases. Php script points towards latest file in the directory.

Again you have a narrow view. You still operate under the belief that: 1 game = 1 sdz.
What about:
- Lobby single player button override
- Lobby splash screen override
- Installer's decoration with images
- Game's readme
- Correcting tiny flaws in Spring's official windows installer
- Prefered way to launch single player
- AI
- AI configs
- SP startscripts or launcher
- Music
- Prefered lobby
- Lobby performs and autojoin
- Asking user question such as: keep config/reset config
- Renaming shorcuts, such as from "Spring Lobby" to "gameName Multiplayer"
- Uninstallers
- ...

AFAIK you were one of the proponent of the conceptual shift from "mods" to "games", but how could that happen if you refuse to let them behave like proper, complete, self-sufficient games?

If it's buggy, well then that would be the fault of the dev wouldn't it?.

No. That would not be the fault of the game dev if it worked fine previously. That would be the fault of the engine dev for breaking retro-compatibility, but we know that has happened and will continue to happen, sometimes willingly, sometimes by accident. That would be the fault of the packager/installer maker, for not testing the package/installer he made! That would be the fault of the webmaster, for luring innocent people into downloading buggy or broken installers. That would be the fault of the previous three, for not listening to the game dev, or being too lazy to implement fix. That would be your fault, Forboding Angel, for being content to have someone to blame, instead of trying to eliminate problems.

I'm sure SD will support things like ... maps and mods.

But not their options, which is a pretty big deal in some cases.

You're concerned with mod and map options, I'm concerned with single player, everybody has its own pet peewee. But SD dev are but a couple hobbyist, they can't fullfill everybody wishes. Sure SD is a great tool, but it's not the magic answer to solve everything without any testing or customisation.

Honestly, find me two pristine souls (people who played game but never Spring), make one play GRTS through SD, and the other through my installer. Don't help. Don't say anything. Just watch. I'd be interested in the report.

[AF]

It would appear that zwzsg is championing the concepts I tried to push in this community, cookies for zwzsg, and why? Because its the right way to do it.

Nobody will ever see as much value in an automated downloader installer that installs ten games, than a dedicated one game installer with effort and care put into it. The user experience on a solid one file installer for one game custom tailored is far, far superior to any installer that treats spring as an engien with 100 games.

[luckywaldo7]

:<

I always though that one of the great strengths of the spring engine was the variety of great game experiences it offered.

[AF]

Indeed, and there is no reason we cant provide a variety of great game experiences instead of one mishmash full of compromises and generics that isn't quite great at any particular thing.

[luckywaldo7]

Oh, maybe I don't understand how everything would work out, say if I installed with KP installer, could I still play EvoRTS or would I need a different installer and would I be installing the same engine again and would the installations collide and all that.

[zwzsg]

I made my installer so that they can be used both as standalone, and over an existing install. They upgrade spring if they are newer, they leave it if they are older. They determine that based on a list of known spring.exe filesizes. (That's how the original did). They add extra files (widgets, maps, mods), but won't delete existing ones. As for the settings, it's a bit iffy. I made a tickbox to not touch them, but then inside KP I have a widget that change settings first time it's run.

So if you installed KP and EvoRTS, you culd install them in the same place to have a single merged Spring install, or in a different place to have two independant installs (baring SD writing your username in a config somewhere).