At which point all of the good players would leave for the fork balanced by good players (or just not upgrade to the new version). Everyone started playing BA over AA for a reason, and a big chunk of that reason was Caydr never played his own mod, and thus wasn't that good at balancing it.Fanger wrote:sleksa GetBack2TrollLair.. foo..
Yes someone who has never played BA could balance it... gasp imagine the crazyness...
TA Derivative Balancing Theory Discussion
Moderator: Moderators
The reason is that a constant ruleset is essential for serious competition to evolve. Whenever you change the rules, the competition scene has to start over and will never grow large, not good.
You know, there are a lot people of saying 'Oh all the good players play BA' and while that is true, wasnt the height of skill and competitive play during the AA era? AA 2.11 or such? When Caydr, the supernoob who sucked at his mod, was doing all the balance work?At which point all of the good players would leave for the fork balanced by good players (or just not upgrade to the new version). Everyone started playing BA over AA for a reason, and a big chunk of that reason was Caydr never played his own mod, and thus wasn't that good at balancing it.
You can blame this on the fact that Caydr ruined it and so all those good players left, or the fact that other games have come out and they've gotten 'bored' with spring or something like that, but the reality is still there- BA is mostly DSD 5v5 games, the 1v1 community is not all that vibrant ATM. There are only 13 players who have played more than 10 games on the ladder.
Well the players started leaving because AA was poorly balanced (e.g. wezels, shit radar range), and BA wasn't able to bring them all back. I think the current low point has much more to do with RL taking many good players away and there not being people who can step into their shoes. There is also the fact that there wasn't a properly functioning ladder for much of the time.
They all left due to RL issues? What a coincidence!
If you want to look at the peak of competitive gaming, even in spring, i dont think BA is it.
Outside of spring, most retail games are made by developers who are complete and total noobs. Even if they are experienced RTS players (Which i doubt any of them are) their game is so new when they make it that they can only be noobs at the game, because nobody knows how to play it yet! Even if they have intense competition in-house, they are never going to be up to the level you'll see in internet play.
Yet still, retail RTS's are often well balanced for competitive play despite having barely any beta testing or patches for 'balance'. Imagine a game thats been in development as long as and had as many patches as BA has. It just doesnt happen.
If you want to look at the peak of competitive gaming, even in spring, i dont think BA is it.
Outside of spring, most retail games are made by developers who are complete and total noobs. Even if they are experienced RTS players (Which i doubt any of them are) their game is so new when they make it that they can only be noobs at the game, because nobody knows how to play it yet! Even if they have intense competition in-house, they are never going to be up to the level you'll see in internet play.
Yet still, retail RTS's are often well balanced for competitive play despite having barely any beta testing or patches for 'balance'. Imagine a game thats been in development as long as and had as many patches as BA has. It just doesnt happen.
You have evidence to the contrary? There is always going to be turnover at the top, but as I said before there aren't enough players to step into their shoes. That time in spring's history that you referred to also had a lot to do with a sudden influx of OTA players, who could learn to play the game properly very quickly.Saktoth wrote:They all left due to RL issues? What a coincidence!
Most other retail RTSes have many fewer units and simpler gameplay and are thus inherently easier to balance.Saktoth wrote: Outside of spring, most retail games are made by developers who are complete and total noobs. Even if they are experienced RTS players (Which i doubt any of them are) their game is so new when they make it that they can only be noobs at the game, because nobody knows how to play it yet! Even if they have intense competition in-house, they are never going to be up to the level you'll see in internet play.
Yet still, retail RTS's are often well balanced for competitive play despite having barely any beta testing or patches for 'balance'. Imagine a game thats been in development as long as and had as many patches as BA has. It just doesnt happen.
You have evidence that someone who has never played the mod but has some idea of what they think ought to be done and the intention to so.. cant balance said mod.. there is a difference between caydr balancing and just not having played the mod.. caydr didnt play the mod, but additionally he seemed to be willing to implement any suggestion thrown at him.. and then not even pay attention to feedback on it..
Utter Apathy != just not having played the mod..
Lordmatt find a useful example beyond ZOMYGOSH you cant balance a mod if you dont play it because look at what Caydr didzorZ..
Utter Apathy != just not having played the mod..
Lordmatt find a useful example beyond ZOMYGOSH you cant balance a mod if you dont play it because look at what Caydr didzorZ..
LordMatt wrote:Yes, the people who are best at the game know the most about gameplay, even more than the game's creators. You can have ideas about how your game will play, but they may or may not turn out to be correct. The truth will come from whoever is best at playing your game. Chris Taylor and co. never intended for MT forests to dominate OTA, but that's what happened because the good players figured out they were better than laser towers for the cost.
LordMatt wrote:Some good players are like that, others are not, however (and no good BA player that I know of thinks MT forests were a good thing). Regardless, TA does not have a developer any more, so the good players must do their best to make the mod as fun as possible (making more units useful, giving them more specific roles, etc.) Not all good players are equipped to do this sort of thing, but the ones who are involved in BA actively are.
LordMatt wrote:People have already said that not all great players are good at balancing, but to be great at balancing, you do need to be a good player.
Once again making a straw man of my position (and those of the other folks in this thread who have made good arguments for this position). The person who is a great player, and knows a thing or two about modding (e.g. Day and Noize) will be best at balancing. Feel free to prove me wrong by getting tonnes of people to play <insert non-TA mod here> and balancing it well by not actually playing it yourself.LordMatt wrote:Well if you're just in the tweaking stage, and your developer closed down 7 years ago, might as well cut out the middle man.
Then why isn't everyone playing it instead of BA, if BA is bad and EE is good?Fanger wrote:I do prove you wrong.. Go play EE its balanced..
wtf???Fanger wrote: OH WAIT.. i made a straw man. except by pointing out a logical fallacy in an argument you make a logical fallacy yourself.. thusly canceling it out..
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TheRegisteredOne
- Posts: 398
- Joined: 10 Dec 2005, 21:39
Quitting due to 'RL issues' is simply the point where the game becomes less interesting than RL. If the game is good, you'll still play it despite 'RL issues'. Either way, i dont dispute that the hayday of Spring has due to OTA players, but if we are going to rate mods purely on 'What is played by the best players' then that was AA.LordMatt wrote: You have evidence to the contrary? There is always going to be turnover at the top, but as I said before there aren't enough players to step into their shoes. That time in spring's history that you referred to also had a lot to do with a sudden influx of OTA players, who could learn to play the game properly very quickly.
I hear OTA was pretty good...Most other retail RTSes have many fewer units and simpler gameplay and are thus inherently easier to balance.
The person who is a great player, and knows a thing or two about modding (e.g. Day and Noize) will be best at balancing. Feel free to prove me wrong by getting tonnes of people to play <insert non-TA mod here> and balancing it well by not actually playing it yourself
not if they dont release a badly needed patch and are core fanboys
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KingRaptor
- Zero-K Developer
- Posts: 838
- Joined: 14 Mar 2007, 03:44
ddm is not opOtherside wrote:The person who is a great player, and knows a thing or two about modding (e.g. Day and Noize) will be best at balancing. Feel free to prove me wrong by getting tonnes of people to play <insert non-TA mod here> and balancing it well by not actually playing it yourself
not if they dont release a badly needed patch and are core fanboys
Well, with my personal experience to go on, I didn't quit (temporarily) because I wasn't interested in the game any more, but because simply don't have any time to play anything atm. I lurk the forum while writing my essays for medical school, trying not to go insane.Saktoth wrote: Quitting due to 'RL issues' is simply the point where the game becomes less interesting than RL. If the game is good, you'll still play it despite 'RL issues'. Either way, i dont dispute that the hayday of Spring has due to OTA players, but if we are going to rate mods purely on 'What is played by the best players' then that was AA.
BA didn't exist when AA was played then, and now we don't have an influx of OTA players (though it would be real nice if we did again :)). I'm just making the point that you can't link those two events as cause and effect. Influx of good players = more competitive play, influx dries up = less competitive play. AA having some really bad versions didn't help matters.
To balance, or not to balance: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous wezels,
Or to take arms against a sea of gaters,
And by opposing end them? To spam: to porc;
No more; and by a spam to say we end
The pwnedness and the thousand natural combombs
That *ta is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To spam, to porc;
To porc: perchance to tekk2krog: ay, there's the rub;
For in that spam of porc what t3 may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long game;
For who would bear the lasers and plasma of time,
The n00b's wrong, the pr0's contumely,
The pangs of despised EE, the AA's delay,
The insolence of sm heroes and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare mex? who would gaters bear,
To micro and macro under a weary 2v2,
But that the dread of something after pwnedness,
The undiscover'd map from whose bourn
No porcer returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those dfens we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale glow of nukes,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their dfens turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair CA! Nymph, in thy lua
Be all my sins remember'd.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous wezels,
Or to take arms against a sea of gaters,
And by opposing end them? To spam: to porc;
No more; and by a spam to say we end
The pwnedness and the thousand natural combombs
That *ta is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To spam, to porc;
To porc: perchance to tekk2krog: ay, there's the rub;
For in that spam of porc what t3 may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long game;
For who would bear the lasers and plasma of time,
The n00b's wrong, the pr0's contumely,
The pangs of despised EE, the AA's delay,
The insolence of sm heroes and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare mex? who would gaters bear,
To micro and macro under a weary 2v2,
But that the dread of something after pwnedness,
The undiscover'd map from whose bourn
No porcer returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those dfens we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale glow of nukes,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their dfens turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair CA! Nymph, in thy lua
Be all my sins remember'd.
Caydr after some serious drama released a purposely flaw AA. THIS is why BA took hold.LordMatt wrote:At which point all of the good players would leave for the fork balanced by good players (or just not upgrade to the new version). Everyone started playing BA over AA for a reason, and a big chunk of that reason was Caydr never played his own mod, and thus wasn't that good at balancing it.Fanger wrote:sleksa GetBack2TrollLair.. foo..
Yes someone who has never played BA could balance it... gasp imagine the crazyness...
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Come up with that all by yourself?BigSteve wrote:I don't really have much to contribute to this other than that, as usual I agree with Matt, and pretty much anyone else posting in this thread who isn't called Fang, smoth of Fornoobing angel.
Spring, and by extention, tauniverse, has some of the most bassakward people I have ever seen.
BA's cookie cutter balance scheme is fundamentally flawed and quite honestly is simply stupid.
x counters y counters b counters d counters g counters x and y counters p etc...
Seriously, what sort of noobs come up with that kind of balance scheme?