Starcraft 2 announced

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 21 May 2007, 02:26

I didnt say SC was not as complex strategically as TA, or any other game for that matter, What I said was that there are fewer units to balance against other units in SC, and I believe this is what contributed more to its good balance, than some awesomeness by the blizzard people, or some other nebulous factor...

FYI knorke, only being able to select 12 units does not add strategic depth, it adds micro, which makes the game more like a FPS than an RTS, and essentially makes tactics more important than overall thinking.. and dont try to argue otherwise..

I hate to break it to you people, but Generals dont run around during a battle and tell every dude what hes supposed to be doing every 5 minutes, they generally organize an overall plan, brief their subbordinates and then watch the battle unfold and make adjustments to the overall battle. However I dont want to get into a micro vs macro argument, there are other games than starcraft, and Honestly Im really tired of hearing about being paraded around as the pinnicle of gaming, when I did not find it to be so..

SC2 looks good in some ways, others not so much, the new siege tanks look like crap, and well depending on how it goes, Im not really expecting a new innovative game.. but again, I really think its "awesome" balance had more to do with the lack of units than anything else.. DONT TAKE THIS TO BE A DEROGATORY COMMENT...

Ishach · Post by **Ishach** » 21 May 2007, 02:30

i watched some guy juggle 10 balls at once and he did it pretty well but i decided to outdo him and juggle 300 at once.

it was really hard and i dropped pretty much all of them but i'd say im the better juggler now

Zpock · Post by **Zpock** » 21 May 2007, 02:37

Ishach wrote:i watched some guy juggle 10 balls at once and he did it pretty well but i decided to outdo him and juggle 300 at once.

it was really hard and i dropped pretty much all of them but i'd say im the better juggler now

Great analogy.

And Starcraft dosn't try to be a life-of-the-general sim, true. It's just a game.

It looks like they dropped the selection limit.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 May 2007, 05:45

Ya, starcraft isn't a macromanagers RTS... but then again, it never really was to begin with. Starcraft has always been about using every unit to it's fullest extent with as much fiddly manipulation as possible.

knorke · Post by **knorke** » 21 May 2007, 06:18

FYI knorke, only being able to select 12 units does not add strategic depth, it adds micro, which makes the game more like a FPS than an RTS, and essentially makes tactics more important than overall thinking.. and dont try to argue otherwise..

I said the restrictions/bugs somehow balance the game, not make it more tactical.
Also I think although there are less units to balance, these units have upgrades and stuff so in the end you probally have as many numbers to keep in mind as when balancing TA.

I hate to break it to you people, but Generals dont run around during a battle and tell every dude what hes supposed to be doing every 5 minutes, they generally organize an overall plan, brief their subbordinates and then watch the battle unfold

what if you happen to be the overmind?

Ishach · Post by **Ishach** » 21 May 2007, 09:21

new gameplay video posted on http://www.starcraft2.com

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 21 May 2007, 10:22

Felix the Cat wrote:Sorry, I can't spend approximately 49 hours per day training so that I can be a competitive player. No Starcrap for me.

I'll chip in three. The three that I sleep. We will make you a champion if we have to resort to steroids.

Lolsquad_Steven · Post by **Lolsquad_Steven** » 21 May 2007, 10:36

SwiftSpear wrote:Ya, starcraft isn't a macromanagers RTS... but then again, it never really was to begin with. Starcraft has always been about using every unit to it's fullest extent with as much fiddly manipulation as possible.

Some of the best players had a more macro style in starcraft, it's just you need to be just as fast to macro well in starcraft.

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 21 May 2007, 11:24

I dont think sc2 or any other rts _needs_ to be innovative and full of 450 unique units to become succesfull. Starcraft is widely popular because it really takes a lot of skill to play it competively, IE it has lots of ladders/tournaments etc.

hrmph · Post by **hrmph** » 21 May 2007, 16:30

Sleksa wrote:I dont think sc2 or any other rts _needs_ to be innovative and full of 450 unique units to become succesfull. Starcraft is widely popular because it really takes a lot of skill to play it competively, IE it has lots of ladders/tournaments etc.

Agreed.. Back when I still had my broodwars cd I would download replays from the huge SC tournaments. It was great watching the pros: espescially when they resorted to the more unconventional tactics (like worker rushes and stuff).

Relative · Post by **Relative** » 21 May 2007, 17:09

Ishach wrote:new gameplay video posted on http://www.starcraft2.com

Woah, blizzard uses their own P2P client for downloading the video. First time I have ever seen anything like this.

hrmph · Post by **hrmph** » 21 May 2007, 17:13

That video is really really cool. I feel sorry for the guys that are in charge of balancing!

Erom · Post by **Erom** » 21 May 2007, 18:11

Relative wrote:
Ishach wrote:new gameplay video posted on http://www.starcraft2.com
Woah, blizzard uses their own P2P client for downloading the video. First time I have ever seen anything like this.

Yeah, they deployed it to lessen the bandwidth rush on World of Warcraft patch days. It was used as an example of a legit use of torrent when they tried to snuff the format (not that that laysuit had a prayer of working, even without Bliz on board

)

erasmus · Post by **erasmus** » 22 May 2007, 00:46

i agree with above poster about this SC vs TA sentiment nonsense, if you have any appreciation for the RTS genre you'll understand why BOTH games are gods in their own right

and macromanagement IS king in starcraft, simply go watch any of the recent korean proleague vods on youtube and youll see why, eg. iloveoov, the timing of his expansions, his pattern of adding factories/barracks

in his heyday, ppl called him the "cheater terran", because massive armies would just pop up out of nowhere

battles are in no sense small in starcraft, often larger than those that take place in spring, its just that skirmishing begins extremely early and is very important

of course micro heroics are also king, and thats why competitive SC is so damn popular and exciting, there is no limit to the amount of skill players can display

strategy and game planning is also underlooked in SC, players like boxer and nal_ra are famous for their off-the-wall strategies that completely wtfpwn their opponents, its a tremendous mind game as well as a "APMclickfest"

like another forum-goer said before, it really smacks of a superdynamic version of chess

here is a really good vod with an english commentary done by some folks from teamliquid.net that really lets you get into progamers' mindset, instead of listening to korean jabber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrkrfyvzkDc

and im gonna throw in some more of my favourite recent games just for the heck of it :D

july vs iloveoov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7oAaMIQv2Y

reach vs yooi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq1YYdRTsrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUaKnNLw ... ed&search=

sea vs jaedong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0rqS7aW4kk

reach vs sea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BkUVFVBpsQ

pusan vs firebathero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SOt3kdxgQw

that said, basic tenets of RTS are present in both games.....
scouting/intelligence on your opponent/scouting denial is important
resource/production management is important
harassment is important
battle micro is important
army movement and placement is important
expansion and supply denial is important
the map MATTERS....A LOT

the thing with TA is that its a much "bigger" game

theres simply a ton more freedom in what you want to do and how you want to do it, i feel that theres a greater potential for creativity and more varied gameplay

though it certainly doesnt have as much style

when you play zerg, and when you play protoss....the mindset is completely different, same thing goes for different matchups

anyways........
theyre keeping the same unit count in sc2 as in sc1, so for every new unit, one old unit will be removed

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 22 May 2007, 02:40

Sleksa wrote:I dont think sc2 or any other rts _needs_ to be innovative and full of 450 unique units to become succesfull. Starcraft is widely popular because it really takes a lot of skill to play it competively, IE it has lots of ladders/tournaments etc.

But I disagree with that assessment. I never found it hard to play effectively and competitively before my body got in the way - there was little to think about or challenge one's self with. I would say it is successful because it requires nothing most people lack to play competitively.

Zpock · Post by **Zpock** » 22 May 2007, 03:42

erasmus wrote: anyways........
theyre keeping the same unit count in sc2 as in sc1, so for every new unit, one old unit will be removed

Sounds good to me... they shouldn't bloat it with units.

Units I think are out:

Dark templar -> stalker. Stalker does the same role, harass.. but ina different way. about 50% sure no DT

Dragoon -> immortal. 100% sure

Arbiter & shuttle -> combined into the phase prism thing. 100% shuttle, 80% on the arbiter is gone

Corsair -> phoenix, 90% sure

Scout -> warp ray 90% sure

Carrier -> mothership. I'd say 50%/50% there will be no carrier.

Observer... non spectacular, probably replaced by something new, or heavily modified.

Archon/reaver -> Colossus, I think either had to go. HT:s would need another trick tough if archon is gone, seems likely to me with it being the previous big ground unit, Im not sure, and reavers mechanics are interesting so I think we will se something similar to his bombs.

Zealot still in.

High Templar still in.

This leaves about 1 of the unsure unit that could still be in if the shuttle+arbiter is combined into the phase prism wich I think it is, or a new unit that we don't know of.

As for other races:

We know these are in:
zergling
marine
muta
siegtank
dropship
ghost

Units that are iconic (central on much of the starcraft art) and will probably stay for sure (but modified):
Hydra
Wraith

Units I think are dull and boring or unessential and will be replaced/heavily modified for sure:
Science vessel
Defiler
Ultralisk
Firebat
Vulture
Goliath
Guardian
Scourge
Queen

Lurkers and overlords seem central and characterizing to current play, so I think they stay, tough might be heavily modified.

Muzic · Post by **Muzic** » 23 May 2007, 02:24

So I was talking with this guy on another forum about SCII...

_________ wrote:Doesn't change the fact that a rush is noobish, over done, and misses the point of an RTS.

jackalope · Post by **jackalope** » 23 May 2007, 04:45

I don't know much about Starcraft, but I will say this: supcom sucks lol.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 23 May 2007, 05:02

If you die to a rush on SC (or SC2 after seeing some footage...) then you phail..

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 23 May 2007, 05:33

The big question is, will they be able to push the hype till release?

I'm hearing dates between october 2007 and 2010.

To me, it looks pretty close to being ready for Beta from the game play trailer.

The coolest feature that I think they could add would be a dedicated spectator mode that could be designed specifically for televising the thing... option to inset all players versions of the maps/status... ability to split screen different cameras, picture in picture so you can see the players or comentators.... maybe even just an open architecture for building a nice displays suitable for televising the matches... that's the next big thing is to embrace the "spectator sport" aspects of gaming with support specifically gears towards those networks in Korea you hear so much about.

Spring RTS Engine

Starcraft 2 announced