Expand & Exterminate .155 Released!
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i like arty the way it is maybe a decrease in speed (not necessarily 50%) so u can't wheel in and out with them. taht way if u wanna really use arty to good effect ull need to keep in protected. ATM u can just roll em up on a position let off a couple of salvos then pull out/back into protection of defenses. This is esp true with URC (don't even get me started on NI).
OK, to head of some random flaming and other goop I dont want, Im posting a changelong here for .153, this changelog is divided into 2 parts, stuff that is definately going in, and stuff that I want opinions on..
Please discuss these changes, specifically the proposed ones I want some concrete input on what is good and what is bad, or what should be changed slightly, and feel free to propose your own changes...Changes:
Definate:
-Turrets will no longer return to initial position after attacking
-GD, and URC light artillery health reduced to below that of light rocket units
-Flying Height of Missile Superweapons increased to function better on larger maps
-Mine Damage readdressed
-Decreased Dmg/Health of Scout aircraft, specifically GD scout helis
-Ground Attack Aircraft will no long do much if any dmg to other aircraft to prevent them from nukeing eachother during an initial attack..
Proposed:
-20% health and damage increase for all lvl 2 units
-5% speed increase for lvl 2 units
-10% decrease in cost of lvl 2 factories (both air and land)
-turn rate and turret fire arc limit on lvl 3 units, as well as a 15% increase in health, this would be to differentiate them from the lvl 2 units, making them more assault oriented, but require support or else they would be easily flanked due to the inability to turn quickly
-50% dmg increase for all turrets, possibly only lvl 2/3 though
-Torpedo launching shor batteries for anti sub warfare
-Torpedo launching lvl 2 aircraft for anti sub warfare
-lvl 1 output tidal generator
-Increased water based radar, or advanced water based radar
Last edited by Fanger on 03 May 2006, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
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- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
The only changes I don't like there are the arty changes. It doesn't need them imo.
Didn't notice that one, only lv 2 pls.-50% dmg increase for all turrets, possibly only lvl 2/3 though
Last edited by Forboding Angel on 03 May 2006, 23:58, edited 1 time in total.
As far as i know all turrets are fine as they are, especially lvl1. A single walled lvl1 cannon turret can take 10 lvl1s out of they├óÔé¼Ôäóre bunched together.
Artillery doesn├óÔé¼Ôäót need a health nerf but a speed nerf, which should be obvious. Taking their health away but keeping the speed the same will only increase the frustration and "luck" factor, while not fixing the hit and run tactics currently employed. Real bad juju, i mean it!
I find the lvl2 and 3 assault units could do with a damage boost. I think reducing the firing arc is kinda silly, especially with units like the laser tank, which are already very crippled when attacked from the sides. Maybe some mechs might need it, i don├óÔé¼Ôäót know, but most lvl3 GD units are restricted enough. Making their turrets turn slower could be good though, i like it.
I think lv2 turrets are fine, not tested lvl3 enough to know if they need a boost.
I find lvl1 plasma turrets kinda sucky compared to cannon and lvl1 laser also pretty weak since minigun turrets are a lot more damaging per cost and also have a longer range. In fact, I find the whole of laser pretty useless, cannons are just so much more reliable and don├óÔé¼Ôäót get owned if the enemy can micro. Id say a 50% dmg increase across the board for laser and a hefty energy cost for firing, would add some more strategic depth, and make power more important and make lasers useful in more skilled games.
Torpedo planes are a great idea, shore batteries seem like a flimsy Band-Aid for the problem of subs, they├óÔé¼Ôäód need a range 200 greater than the subs themselves to be much use (prevent you from being landlocked and build a shipyard) and i find the planes could do the same job easier.
I think the water radar is fine atm, super-radars and super-jammers are in AA and i think they not only suck but take away from the strategic values, encouraging porcing and slowing the game down. Please don├óÔé¼Ôäót! If it were up to me there would only be lvl1 radars in any mod, and small range jammers. You shouldnt be able to see the whole enemy base without scouts and because of it people add super-jammers which turn everything into World War 1 trench warfare, it really really sucks!
Amphib units suck really hard; no one ever uses them seriously. They do very little damage compared to their land equivalents. Id give them the same weapons as land units but 20% less hp and 10% more cost, with a cool blue camo. Its just enough to prevent people from building them from land combat. The current crippling is OTT.
About the scout planes. I don├óÔé¼Ôäót build them often to know, but if they are going to suck at combat they should be good at scouting, and that means they should be cheap, weak, fast and with a large LOS. If other planes cost the same but are armed then scouts are useless, especially for URC which has the spiders.
lastly, i find cannon and plasma mechs too similar, it would be good if they were a bit more different, else we have 2 units with similar roles, one of them might as well not exist.
Well that├óÔé¼Ôäós my hundred cents. I realized halfway that i didn├óÔé¼Ôäót really want to be posting here but wasting so much posting time would be silly. My word aint the gospel but i have a very good idea about gameplay mechanics, at least keep what i said in mind.
Artillery doesn├óÔé¼Ôäót need a health nerf but a speed nerf, which should be obvious. Taking their health away but keeping the speed the same will only increase the frustration and "luck" factor, while not fixing the hit and run tactics currently employed. Real bad juju, i mean it!
I find the lvl2 and 3 assault units could do with a damage boost. I think reducing the firing arc is kinda silly, especially with units like the laser tank, which are already very crippled when attacked from the sides. Maybe some mechs might need it, i don├óÔé¼Ôäót know, but most lvl3 GD units are restricted enough. Making their turrets turn slower could be good though, i like it.
I think lv2 turrets are fine, not tested lvl3 enough to know if they need a boost.
I find lvl1 plasma turrets kinda sucky compared to cannon and lvl1 laser also pretty weak since minigun turrets are a lot more damaging per cost and also have a longer range. In fact, I find the whole of laser pretty useless, cannons are just so much more reliable and don├óÔé¼Ôäót get owned if the enemy can micro. Id say a 50% dmg increase across the board for laser and a hefty energy cost for firing, would add some more strategic depth, and make power more important and make lasers useful in more skilled games.
Torpedo planes are a great idea, shore batteries seem like a flimsy Band-Aid for the problem of subs, they├óÔé¼Ôäód need a range 200 greater than the subs themselves to be much use (prevent you from being landlocked and build a shipyard) and i find the planes could do the same job easier.
I think the water radar is fine atm, super-radars and super-jammers are in AA and i think they not only suck but take away from the strategic values, encouraging porcing and slowing the game down. Please don├óÔé¼Ôäót! If it were up to me there would only be lvl1 radars in any mod, and small range jammers. You shouldnt be able to see the whole enemy base without scouts and because of it people add super-jammers which turn everything into World War 1 trench warfare, it really really sucks!
Amphib units suck really hard; no one ever uses them seriously. They do very little damage compared to their land equivalents. Id give them the same weapons as land units but 20% less hp and 10% more cost, with a cool blue camo. Its just enough to prevent people from building them from land combat. The current crippling is OTT.
About the scout planes. I don├óÔé¼Ôäót build them often to know, but if they are going to suck at combat they should be good at scouting, and that means they should be cheap, weak, fast and with a large LOS. If other planes cost the same but are armed then scouts are useless, especially for URC which has the spiders.
lastly, i find cannon and plasma mechs too similar, it would be good if they were a bit more different, else we have 2 units with similar roles, one of them might as well not exist.
Well that├óÔé¼Ôäós my hundred cents. I realized halfway that i didn├óÔé¼Ôäót really want to be posting here but wasting so much posting time would be silly. My word aint the gospel but i have a very good idea about gameplay mechanics, at least keep what i said in mind.
Its all about quality fang, you could make 400 units each filling a tiny niche making your mod hell to balance or learn, not to mention youd get tired of making them and the quality/creativity would drop. Anti-sub air is already a bit too specialized, should be anti-water, so youre not making a new unit just to cancel out one or two others (AA levelers, COUGH COUGH). Plus it would provide the much-needed ship counter, have the torps do equal damage to all sea objects, subs cant fight back anyways.
Think to yourself how many times you would realistically use an anti-sub tower, especially if it doesnt have the 1k range needed to make it useful. It could be blown to shit by arty ships anyways since they control the sea! It cant move so people can avoid it and making it more powerful to compensate will fuck up maps with small water areas. It will be headache galore IMO
I should really go to bed, and i love you caydr, really!
Think to yourself how many times you would realistically use an anti-sub tower, especially if it doesnt have the 1k range needed to make it useful. It could be blown to shit by arty ships anyways since they control the sea! It cant move so people can avoid it and making it more powerful to compensate will fuck up maps with small water areas. It will be headache galore IMO
I should really go to bed, and i love you caydr, really!
Last edited by krogothe on 04 May 2006, 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
same dude, gotta vote tomorrow before college as well! Let the others chew on those posts for a bit while we get our deserved rest after a day full of pwnageMin3mat wrote:i should go to bed too. i had the stupid idea of downloading digsite and that takes a while even on 2 Mbit. im up in what? 6+1/2 hrs... >.>
Thats sounds good. But you may want to not apply that to arty and AAA.Changes:
Proposed:
-20% health and damage increase for all lvl 2 units
I would make that a whole 10 percent, 5 will barely be noticeale, and again, arty and AAA doesnt need a boost.Fanger wrote: -5% speed increase for lvl 2 units
Neat. It would also be awesome if adv. mexes would cost less by 10% too.Fanger wrote: -10% decrease in cost of lvl 2 factories (both air and land)
That is ok, but hardly needed, as the l3 of GD are alreay very prone to flanking, the mechs not as much. Perhaps only apply that to URC.Fanger wrote: -turn rate and turret fire arc limit on lvl 3 units, as well as a 15% increase
in health, this would be to differentiate them from the lvl 2 units, making them more assault oriented, but require support or else they would be easily flanked due to the inability to turn quickly
Sounds nice, but if arty stays that mobile as it is now and even gets a boost, it wont matter much.Fanger wrote: -50% dmg increase for all turrets, possibly only lvl 2/3 though
That battery wont help too much if you are land-locked, as your enemy will already have combat ships too. Better make the plane really effective, or even better yet, make the subs move slower, so the time window for buildig a shipyard is larger.Fanger wrote: -Torpedo launching shor batteries for anti sub warfare
-Torpedo launching lvl 2 aircraft for anti sub warfare
Neat, but barely needed, if the mod is about land battles, why no keep it that way ?Fanger wrote: -lvl 1 output tidal generator
Thats cool. But i would think an adv. ECM ship would do the job just as well.Fanger wrote: -Increased water based radar, or advanced water based radar
I have a few proposals:
Nerf the movement speed of the Arty, as Krog also said.
Its needed and will only be for the better, scince you can not move your mexes or turrets to avoid the shells. A slower arty will still be effective, but cant be re-used too easily. The arty doesnt have its speed to reach a target but its range.
The other proposals are of more fundamental nature, and will get an extra post.
I actually like the idea of a slower artillery. For one it means lvl 1 units could just go in and smash your atillery if you don't protect them (and wont that be embarrasing?), and you could still move the artillery around quickly with air drops. I wonder if someone has tried air dropping chenobles off someone's base and shelling him with an unexpectedly large number of nukes from a hilltop. The straighter trajectory will make the nukes more accurate, and the hill would buy your units time to skiddadle via air transports.
I have to try that eventually.
I have to try that eventually.
Fang,
it would be absolutely über if you would decide now and tell us if the game should be balanced for either of the following alternatives:
Types of gameplay:
- Momentum (Raiding)
- Teching (Porcing)
- Spamming (Expanding)
If i got it right, each of the three races shall represent one of these styles of play, so that you should decide BEFORE the game starts, what style of gameplay you prefer.
GD would tech and porc.
URC would raid from unexpected angles and try to use the advantage gained by killing vulnerable assets to further build the momentum gained, and be able to hold momentum by adapting quickly.
NI would expand fastest and spam units to overrun the enemy.
At least that is what i extract from the Wiki and what i have heared until now.
But since we are in a relatively early stage of balancing, these differences arent having a very high profile yet.
Instead, all factions could spam two versions ago, now all porc, because thats what it is when battles mainly consist of artillery duke-outs, while momentum play is only seen when the teams are very un-even.
Also, there is no differentiation between the factions regarding the effectiveness of the tech-levels, as all games focus on level 1.
This is reflected in the economy, where energy is barely important, yet it is the only difference between the factions, metal is gained the same way for all. The different metal extractors barely influence gameplay.
What would be awesome is, if the balancing wouldnt focus so much on single units or unit classes, but on differentiating the factions.
I bet you know warcraft 3. The factions there are all balanced around a singular style of gameplay, although good mirco can off-set the limitations to a certain extent.
The wiki implies that the same should be achieved for E&E.
We have 3 tech levels, each faction should excel at one of them.
GD: Tech 3
URC: Tech 2
NI: Tech 1
This implies the following:
GD = Porc
URC = Raid
NI = Spam
Leading to these economies:
GD = Tech
URC = Momentum
NI = Expansion
A teching econ would base on getting the most out of few spots, and being able to hold on to them.
A momentum econ would base on depriving the enemy of ressources early by needle-attacks and building up ressources over the enemy via cutting his off, while expanding on an average level.
An expansive econ would focus on gaining the most spots the fastest while being vulnerable.
As you can see, these styles of gameplay are eachothers nemesis.
With that in mind the different units can be balanced, idealy in such a way that URC has the best t2 units, while GD has the best t3 and NI has the best t1 units.
Consequently, these differences must be noticeable but not by such a margin that you have no chance if you stray a little from the path, so that overly good mirco can always save you.
Right now, the factions are INCLINDED that way, yet, they play way too similar.
Bottom line:
Before doing a dozen balance passes on singular issues with certain units, please consider the general inclination of the factions and balance towards that, if certain units do turn out to be OP after the factions are geared towards a certain tech level, balance passes for these units can be done.
E&E is such a unique mod for the spring engine, dont let it be stuck between OP units and repetitive gameplay just because the factions are too similar. Please differentiate them now, and not only by the features of their mexes, beause that is not enough.
it would be absolutely über if you would decide now and tell us if the game should be balanced for either of the following alternatives:
Types of gameplay:
- Momentum (Raiding)
- Teching (Porcing)
- Spamming (Expanding)
If i got it right, each of the three races shall represent one of these styles of play, so that you should decide BEFORE the game starts, what style of gameplay you prefer.
GD would tech and porc.
URC would raid from unexpected angles and try to use the advantage gained by killing vulnerable assets to further build the momentum gained, and be able to hold momentum by adapting quickly.
NI would expand fastest and spam units to overrun the enemy.
At least that is what i extract from the Wiki and what i have heared until now.
But since we are in a relatively early stage of balancing, these differences arent having a very high profile yet.
Instead, all factions could spam two versions ago, now all porc, because thats what it is when battles mainly consist of artillery duke-outs, while momentum play is only seen when the teams are very un-even.
Also, there is no differentiation between the factions regarding the effectiveness of the tech-levels, as all games focus on level 1.
This is reflected in the economy, where energy is barely important, yet it is the only difference between the factions, metal is gained the same way for all. The different metal extractors barely influence gameplay.
What would be awesome is, if the balancing wouldnt focus so much on single units or unit classes, but on differentiating the factions.
I bet you know warcraft 3. The factions there are all balanced around a singular style of gameplay, although good mirco can off-set the limitations to a certain extent.
The wiki implies that the same should be achieved for E&E.
We have 3 tech levels, each faction should excel at one of them.
GD: Tech 3
URC: Tech 2
NI: Tech 1
This implies the following:
GD = Porc
URC = Raid
NI = Spam
Leading to these economies:
GD = Tech
URC = Momentum
NI = Expansion
A teching econ would base on getting the most out of few spots, and being able to hold on to them.
A momentum econ would base on depriving the enemy of ressources early by needle-attacks and building up ressources over the enemy via cutting his off, while expanding on an average level.
An expansive econ would focus on gaining the most spots the fastest while being vulnerable.
As you can see, these styles of gameplay are eachothers nemesis.
With that in mind the different units can be balanced, idealy in such a way that URC has the best t2 units, while GD has the best t3 and NI has the best t1 units.
Consequently, these differences must be noticeable but not by such a margin that you have no chance if you stray a little from the path, so that overly good mirco can always save you.
Right now, the factions are INCLINDED that way, yet, they play way too similar.
Bottom line:
Before doing a dozen balance passes on singular issues with certain units, please consider the general inclination of the factions and balance towards that, if certain units do turn out to be OP after the factions are geared towards a certain tech level, balance passes for these units can be done.
E&E is such a unique mod for the spring engine, dont let it be stuck between OP units and repetitive gameplay just because the factions are too similar. Please differentiate them now, and not only by the features of their mexes, beause that is not enough.
Last edited by Andreask on 04 May 2006, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.
If I recall the game correctly, the only time I ever had an attacking going was when I spammed artillery. Whenever I sent out any major force for direct attack, it got torn to shreds.smoth wrote:I was in game with you corbeau, you never pressed an advance. I made 3 pushes that were relatively sucessful. If I wasn't also helping forboding durring that game I would have taken blue out on my own.
In fact, that sums up most any game that goes past about 10 minutes, which is the core of my complaint. The exact same thing occurred in a game where I spammed cameras and stealth radar. Jamming screws the radar and you can't get a camera close enough to the enemy to plan an offensive (incidentally, I'd also vote for making ECM more expensive - but that's relatively minor).
I think nerfing the speed of artillery and boosting the speed of L2 conventionals would help a lot. Artillery is extremely easy to withdraw as is with even a minor screen. Increasing the margin for error when deploying artillery would make things more interesting, IMO.
Last edited by Corbeau on 04 May 2006, 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
I made a sucessfull push and he was sending an army at me. All the push took was missile tanks.Corbeau wrote:If I recall the game correctly, the only time I ever had an attacking going was when I spammed artillery. Whenever I sent out any major force for direct attack, it got torn to shreds.smoth wrote:I was in game with you corbeau, you never pressed an advance. I made 3 pushes that were relatively sucessful. If I wasn't also helping forboding durring that game I would have taken blue out on my own.
In fact, that sums up most any game that goes past about 10 minutes.
Smashing an enemy attacking army is not a problem. Taking on enemy fixed defenses & fresh reinforcements with the tattered remains of my army was not appealing (especially after failing multiple times when trying exactly that).
And how exactly did missile tanks help you? They've seemed rather weak from what I've seen.
And how exactly did missile tanks help you? They've seemed rather weak from what I've seen.