Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 20 Apr 2006, 12:19

yep flashes are too good (i am arm player). Air is fine imo, hawks are still good when u are near unit limit or u need strong fighter force.

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 20 Apr 2006, 12:49

NOiZE wrote:FF's and Avengers are too good imo

they might have a bit to much power, but they do die very easily.
I think right now freedom fighters and avengers are for base defence and vamps for search and destroy, which is ok.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 20 Apr 2006, 18:02

Min3mat wrote:SABOT VTOL's take a absolute whopping already. also there are already liches/krows which are more resistant to flak
and things like Hawks/Vamps (which use missiles) more effective? hawks/vamps = interception, you get behind your enemy with them and just VOLLEY missiles non-stop until you reach your base, they are great AA if you can get radar coverage or a scout perimeter (peepers work well)

"More effective" was a bad choice of words. I didn't mean they'd be more effective than they are now, rather that they'd be more effective than flak against the flak-proofed Sabots. So you'd need them to compliment your ground-based AA. That was my thought process, at least.

I know that Liches and Krows are more resistant to flak, though I wasn't sure just how much more.

As for Sabots, are they currently good enough that they're worth building instead of normal gunships? If so, when? That's the issue here: they don't seem, at first glance, to be worth building instead of normal gunships. If the enemy has flak or fighters, they still die. If the enemy doesn't, you can mass normal gunships faster. Is there something I'm missing?

Air is most certainly useful late game. it may be better when used earlier if you don't let your opponenet catch wind of what you are doing but even late game it is still very much useful!

I'd gathered all (or most) of the above. I'm just saying that some people have difficulty working out how to use air effectively once bases start sprouting flak cannons. I suppose the roles break down kind of like this after that point:

Fighters, both tech levels: AA, either aggressive or defensive.
Gunships, L2: Raiding anything that hasn't yet sprouted flak.
Gunships, Sabot: ???
Bombers, L2: Mass them, blow something expensive up, retreat, exploit the opening?
Transports, L2: Move big, slow units around fast.
Liche/Krow: Help assault things that have sprouted flak.

Yes? If so, I'll throw some notes into the unit guide, which should hopefully help avoid stupidity in the future.

Thank you for explaining things politely. I now understand the source of your "WTF" reaction, though I still wonder about the effectiveness of Sabots, as mentioned above.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 20 Apr 2006, 19:38

Arm "Archon" Anti-Air Kbot, 212 faces:

Core "Adept" Anti-Air Kbot, 250 faces:

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 20 Apr 2006, 19:43

nice!

Gunships, Sabot: ???

when your opponent has flak. as i said, quite clearly, they are resistant to flak. a very potent air unit which acts like a gunship. powerful, effective and fast. it has uses. i just rarely use them because after 20 mins or so of tech 2 the game is often over!

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 20 Apr 2006, 19:49

Min3mat wrote:
Egarwaen wrote:Gunships, Sabot: ???
when your opponent has flak. as i said, quite clearly, they are resistant to flak. a very potent air unit which acts like a gunship. powerful, effective and fast. it has uses. i just rarely use them because after 20 mins or so of tech 2 the game is often over!

They're resistant to flak now? I thought that was why this whole discussion started in the first place, because they weren't, and Caydr wanted to make them so. If that's the case, I'll definitely update the Unit Guide.

Thanks for your help, and apologies for snapping at you. I may not be as experienced as you, but I'm hardly a n00b. And I've never used them either (or Liches or Krows, for that matter), because by the time I get around to rolling them out, the game's over.

Also, there's something odd with Pitbulls. I'm not quite sure what's going on there, but you're right, three of them in the same area is pretty nice and do plenty of damage to L2 tanks.

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 20 Apr 2006, 19:53

The Archon and Adept look interesting. The cannons on them are readily apparent without texturing, Flak I assume, but what about the Archon's Arms and the Adept's Right Arm? The other arm on the Adept looks like it may be a missile launcher. Are those going to be other weapon platforms or just aesthetic?

Leaderz0rz · Post by **Leaderz0rz** » 20 Apr 2006, 20:01

I believe he said earlier they would have missles and flak

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 20 Apr 2006, 21:25

The Aircraft section of the Unit Guide has been updated based on Min3mat's advice. Thanks again for your help!

The new KBots look great, Caydr. Excellent job!

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 20 Apr 2006, 21:36

thanks dude :) but i'm not saying that they necessaril;y have ARMOUR resistance to flak, they just can withstand it easily and when you use them in groups it really really helps. having said that it still could be that they have a slight resistance to flak, i might do some ingame testing to see just how effective flak is to SABOT VTOLs.
And don't worry about not knowing that, they are useful but only when a game becomes LEGENDARY . i.e. you and another player are almost perfectly matched, and the stalemate is broken then rejoined etc, its awesome. I only seen SABOT's once in a real game and that was used against me, small groups are devastating against AA good enough to deal with brawlies/bombers and i almost lost (even though i had the majority of map control) until i got more flak with my attacks and some hawks to help.
gj with the guide as well, looks really nice :D

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 20 Apr 2006, 21:51

the first one is awful the second one is not too bad. I think you should revisit their geometry.

wizard8873 · Post by **wizard8873** » 20 Apr 2006, 21:55

wow, they look really nice. hope to see them in game. i've longed for a lvl2 aa kbot for a while now. can't wait to see it in action

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 20 Apr 2006, 22:12

Min3mat wrote:thanks dude :) but i'm not saying that they necessaril;y have ARMOUR resistance to flak, they just can withstand it easily and when you use them in groups it really really helps. having said that it still could be that they have a slight resistance to flak, i might do some ingame testing to see just how effective flak is to SABOT VTOLs.

Ah, got it. All I said in the guide is that they were tough. If they really do work significantly better against flak-covered targets, that's great.

I only seen SABOT's once in a real game and that was used against me, small groups are devastating against AA good enough to deal with brawlies/bombers and i almost lost (even though i had the majority of map control) until i got more flak with my attacks and some hawks to help.

Sounds like that was an amazing game.

Would it be worth it to start a Wiki page of links to excellent AA replays, with notes about stuff to watch for? Either really epic games like that, or ones that just illustrate basic strategies - pressure, assaulting porcs, that kind of thing.

gj with the guide as well, looks really nice :D

Thanks!

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 20 Apr 2006, 22:49

more or less given up AA until 1.45, been playing E&E a bit of FF and stuff :)
go to http://www.gamereplays.org
register
there are a few gems in there still i think (under TA2)

MrSpontaneous · Post by **MrSpontaneous** » 20 Apr 2006, 23:51

noticed something strange, torpedo bombers or atleast the titen does not seam to attack subs. it fires on boats fine but refuses to drop its torpedos at submarines. I was seeing them because of my allies sonar but they would not attack ground either.

probably needs more testing but just fyi

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 20 Apr 2006, 23:56

MrSpontaneous wrote:noticed something strange, torpedo bombers or atleast the titen does not seam to attack subs. it fires on boats fine but refuses to drop its torpedos at submarines. I was seeing them because of my allies sonar but they would not attack ground either.

probably needs more testing but just fyi

spring bug

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 21 Apr 2006, 00:14

MrSpontaneous wrote:noticed something strange, torpedo bombers or atleast the titen does not seam to attack subs. it fires on boats fine but refuses to drop its torpedos at submarines. I was seeing them because of my allies sonar but they would not attack ground either.

probably needs more testing but just fyi

That's quickly getting to the top of my list of things I'd like to see fixed (with the engine). A lot of the naval balance is dependant on the fact that you can clear an area of water of any enemy presence with torpedo bombers. They're a way to get back into the water if you've been forced out. In the meantime, I'm considering a big boost to torpedo bomber HP. They're very specialized units, after all.

Deathblane · Post by **Deathblane** » 21 Apr 2006, 00:25

det wrote:A big problem I have encountered is nukes hitting even slightly elevated terrain before reaching their target.

I posted on this a few pages back. I know nukes aren't the most used of strategies but if you can get a couple in before you're opponent has built anti-nuke silos it can give you the game so it's incredibly frustrating to see them detonate against an ill placed mountain.

MrSpontaneous · Post by **MrSpontaneous** » 21 Apr 2006, 03:17

not sure that they need the boost, this is very little to go by but three took out a flak ship with great ease, before scatter much of a fleat and sinking several ships (they ran back to their aa defenses)

just my 2 cents (or maybe its a half cent?)

FireCrack · Post by **FireCrack** » 21 Apr 2006, 04:56

Prehaps it would be possible to make the nuke fly higher at first, but speed it up somwhat to counter the extra time this takes.

Oprimaly, there would be a cruisealt tag added to the game that tells the missiles to keep this high above the ground until they reach their target....

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46