Absolute Annihilation 2.11

[jellyman]

Ok I'm wrong about brawlers being useless later in the game. I've used them myself for base defence....

And I don't see the problem with level 1 aa units being somewhat effective against level 2 air units. Level 1 units can do reasonable job against level 2 ground attacks. As long as level 2 units are more effective in the longer term...

And scouting yes I agree in principal, but it can be hard to scout out every factory, and know what your opponent is building. I think very very few players would actually achieve this.

My point was not that brawlers were a problem with ideal play. I will agree that between players playing at the highest level of skill, brawlers could be well balanced (I don't have personal experience of this so I am taking others word for it....)

So should AA be balanced to be fun for ideal expert players only? Should a small mistake like lack of scouting or late Anti air open up a player to rapid brawler destruction.

Or is this a painfull but valuable learning experience that is fun for the player dishing out the punishment and should be motivation for the loser to learn to play better? Is it even better that if a player makes such a mistake that they lose quickly and spectacularly, rather than a longer more drawn out defeat?

I hope someone understands what I'm getting at, and doesn't simply provide more advice on how good players should counter a brawler rush....

[NOiZE]

OR make MT's able to shoot @ ground, so ppl will actually build AA before they see a plane

[FireCrack]

As far as seaplanes being better than L2 aircraft I don't find that to be so. I' compared them on the unit guide and often the seaplanes are weaker/slower than their L@ counterparts.

Yes, slightly weaker/slower, sometimes, but check the price, they often cost much less.

[Konane]

I'd like to see more spiders in the game, can't you introduce the spider lab?

Bah, the only reasonable change would be to change karganeth's model into something spider-looking, as it looks really stupid clibing vertical hills. But that would probably be much work for a visual effect. Anyhow, more all-terrain units? Dont think so.

[LOrDo]

Caydr! Wheres my advanced anti air kbot! I want my advanced anti air kbot!

[Acidd_UK]

Jellyman - the game needs to be balanced for 'expert' players. If you try to make it simple, then obviously it loses the depth that makes it interesting. If you try to balance the game for new players, then you are almost certainly going to create imbalances that experienced players will exploit. Using the brawler example, if we make all AA really effective at killing brawlers, then it makes building brawlers pretty pointless, at least for base attack. Then the same thing happens to bombers and soon enough aircraft are not a viable attack strategy because it's too easy to counter them.

I think air defences are fine as most ppl have said, in the same way that ground defences are ok. You wouldn't build a front line out of llts and then complan when a few gollies/bulldogs steamroll through it, and the ppl saying omgwtfbrawlerswarmspwnzor! are effectively doing just that.

And scouting yes I agree in principal, but it can be hard to scout out every factory, and know what your opponent is building. I think very very few players would actually achieve this.

The one thing I've learned from watching replays is the massive massive importance of good intelligence. In 90% of replays, you will see some huge hole in one or both sides defences, or see their big surprise attack well before it's actually dangerous. As such, you should view gathering intel on the enemy as one of your top priorities - as has been said, scout planes are dirt cheap in the mid game, and spy bots if used properly are pretty much undetectable. If you can master scouting, it will improve your game by an order of magnitude.

[Neuralize]

OR make MT's able to shoot @ ground, so ppl will actually build AA before they see a plane

Noo! Gross OTA spam. I enjoy the aspect of air where you have to make an effort to protect yourself. Surpise attacks with lurking gunships are always epic and deserved upon the unprepared.

[Neddie]

The one thing I've learned from watching replays is the massive massive importance of good intelligence. In 90% of replays, you will see some huge hole in one or both sides defences, or see their big surprise attack well before it's actually dangerous. As such, you should view gathering intel on the enemy as one of your top priorities - as has been said, scout planes are dirt cheap in the mid game, and spy bots if used properly are pretty much undetectable. If you can master scouting, it will improve your game by an order of magnitude.

As another experienced, if crappy player, I recognize that my worst shortcoming is my lack of sustained scouting in AA. Acidd is right on the ball here - scouting can improve your game by a tremendous amount. It's all about efficent use of units... you don't even need to scout with scouts - anything with a fair turn of speed can scout. I've used Banshees recently to scout, and my game has begun to pick up tremendously. I can scout and raid at the same time!

Watching replays may leech valuable time you could be playing during, but you should look into them whenever you suffer a strange defeat. If you had 60% of the map and died in a single wave assault, that would be a time to look at a replay. Don't bother if you lost because three of four allies quit and either gave their stuff to the other side or destroyed it all.

[Kixxe]

I also would like to ask why in level 1 tech, you could build a nuclear mine for 750 metal!, and blow the "bad word here" out of any level1 kbot of an overkill, dont you think maybe we could use like a
level 2 minelayer? because seriously, for level 1 minelayers do build all tech level mines is sufficent, but alittle strange in AA, because you cant build a sumo in the level 1 kbot lab, or the arm penetrator.

It's done like that so you acullay have a USE for level 1 units in huge level 2 battles!

[ginekolog]

air balance is perfect if lvl1 fighters get tiny nerf. Other things have their uses besides torpedo plane.

I am not 100% sure here but isnt it better to build lvl2 bombers instead of torpedo planes? Their damage is similar(torpedo 700, bomber 700-1000) and bobers is also against ground, doesnet suffer torpedo jam (where torpedo hits other crapy ships or even ground!) . TP only has more health.

I suggest that cyder boost TP a bit (maybe even that it drops single bomb with 100% hit rate) and like 1000 damage. How do others think?

Other balance is very good atm, dont do anything major!

I am also against lvl2 AA bots, it might render air less usefull and promote kbotlab even more. (vehicles are sooo rarely seen :)

[BigSteve]

"I am also against lvl2 AA bots, it might render air less usefull and promote kbotlab even more. (vehicles are sooo rarely seen :)"

I totally agree, lev2 aa kbots are totally unecessary, 10 jethros mixed with your attackers works wonders, on most maps you can put a LR missile tower near your frontlines to help cover your attacking forces, this plus a good chunk of jethros makes it very difficult for brawlers or bombers to intercept attacking forces

[NOiZE]

"I am also against lvl2 AA bots, it might render air less usefull and promote kbotlab even more. (vehicles are sooo rarely seen :)"

I totally agree, lev2 aa kbots are totally unecessary, 10 jethros mixed with your attackers works wonders, on most maps you can put a LR missile tower near your frontlines to help cover your attacking forces, this plus a good chunk of jethros makes it very difficult for brawlers or bombers to intercept attacking forces

QFT

[Kixxe]

"I am also against lvl2 AA bots, it might render air less usefull and promote kbotlab even more. (vehicles are sooo rarely seen :)"

I totally agree, lev2 aa kbots are totally unecessary, 10 jethros mixed with your attackers works wonders, on most maps you can put a LR missile tower near your frontlines to help cover your attacking forces, this plus a good chunk of jethros makes it very difficult for brawlers or bombers to intercept attacking forces

err. how about no?

Jethros as level 2 air defence is not the best of ideas... Agsint level 1, sure but level 2? nah uh.


Besides, that would be what's called a "bandaid solution". Instead of making vechiles attractive because their acully GOOD at something (eg they should be higer damage/hp per cost vs K-bots but slower and clumpsier, so that k-bots are built as support or on hilly maps...) we say that "Oh hey, if you want level 2 mobile AA, you gotta build an vechile factory! Then everyone will build one and use the "useless" units to!"

[Charlemagne]

I actually think air is too good. Arm flak resistant gunships are virtually unstoppable, if the player micros them a bit and takes out all enemy AA before he starts blasting other things.

I would like to see a more ground combat-oriented gameplay, were air has only an auxilliary support role. Air should still be good and capable of dealing some heavy damage, but it shouldn't be possible to win only using air as easily as it is.

That's my opinion.

[Ishach]

I actually think air is too good. Arm flak resistant gunships are virtually unstoppable, if the player micros them a bit and takes out all enemy AA before he starts blasting other things.

I would like to see a more ground combat-oriented gameplay, were air has only an auxilliary support role. Air should still be good and capable of dealing some heavy damage, but it shouldn't be possible to win only using air as easily as it is.

That's my opinion.

You could say that peewees were unstoppable if someone took out all your ground defence and they micro'd them well.


I think air is considered too powerfull by some because it isnt taken seriously enough in terms of defence against it

[ginekolog]

ok i will say it now and noobs WRITE IT DOWN.

[NOOB MODE]

As soon as u suspect enemy is using air, build lvl1 airfield with commander and build 10 fighters (commander should assist here) That way u are SAFE even against 10 brawlers. Btw u spend ~ 1500M, enemy 6000M. Who cares about static defense when u got MOBILE ultimate Anti air fighters.

[/NOOB MODE]


Other thing - how about making lvl2 AA veh all terrain vehicle(or atleast kbot mobility) so we could use it to escort kbots around?

[Min3mat]

I actually think air is too good. Arm flak resistant gunships are virtually unstoppable, if the player micros them a bit and takes out all enemy AA before he starts blasting other things.

you do realise that CORE have them too?
you do realise they cost a lot?
you do realise MT/fighters/Mercuries are effective against them?

[Drone_Fragger]

ok i will say it now and noobs WRITE IT DOWN.

[NOOB MODE]

As soon as u suspect enemy is using air, build lvl1 airfield with commander and build 10 fighters (commander should assist here) That way u are SAFE even against 10 brawlers. Btw u spend ~ 1500M, enemy 6000M. Who cares about static defense when u got MOBILE ultimate Anti air fighters.

[/NOOB MODE]


Other thing - how about making lvl2 AA veh all terrain vehicle(or atleast kbot mobility) so we could use it to escort kbots around?

Caydr made a KBot AA, Which he hasn't put in yet.
Also, Fighters aren't much use if you own half the map. By the time your fighters get to the gunships, They've killed everything there, and if the brawlers have fighters with them, You are stuffed anyway.

[Min3mat]

RADAR
SCOUTS
and ffs fighters are slightly faster than brawlers LOL
and they are supposed to be for interecepting them more than fighting them, just getting behind them and making their lives HELL!

[Pxtl]

I actually think air is too good. Arm flak resistant gunships are virtually unstoppable, if the player micros them a bit and takes out all enemy AA before he starts blasting other things.

you do realise that CORE have them too?
you do realise they cost a lot?
you do realise MT/fighters/Mercuries are effective against them?

Just looked at the unit guide. Did not realise the Krow was also flak-resistant. No way of knowing unless you look at the unit damages.

To all the people screaming for the anti-air kbot: My understanding is that caydr's plan for the anti-air kbot was to make it more like a mobile anti-swarmer than another mobile flak - so fighters and flaktanks will still be the best way to handle a gunship swarm.

So, how does the L2 fighter currently perform? I've never used (or even seen) it in game.