Marketing Plan Plan

[PicassoCT]

Biggest Problem is that we are blind, we dont see the game like new players see it, we may have faint memorys, but they are biased. For example most people dont want to work when they want to play. Sounds idiotic simply? Well, everyone here pours hours of his time into the game, and you all no the reactions, when one of the noobs makes himself the "work" to post his problems here.

If people have to work to get spring going, they will pay for other rts to avoid that work and have instant fun.

[Forboding Angel]

this game

What is this game?

games will end in 1 hour

Which games? What if someone wanted one that didn't?

I played a 4 hour CA FFA, this is very rare but it did not turn into a lagfest.

For that matter, if you remember that ffa we had on throne in Evo, that wasn't a lagfest either and it lasted a solid hour with you throwing up nuke shields everywhere

Whether something turns into a lagfest is entirely dependent upon the game being played. BA will almost always turn into a lagfest because A: It's unoptimized, B: lol8v8DSD?.

[AF]

For the last time, bolting singleplayer onto a windowed lobby app doesnt work. New players are just as clueless after the features added as before, its only a small minority that goes hunting and finds the new functionality. They're expecting something like when you load up starcraft or supreme commander.

Spring is a dismal failure in this regard, and is one of the reasons I load up supcom or starcraft 2 when I want to play a quick AI RTS match, even though I know about springlobbys singleplayer mode, its just far too much effort. Even Zs kernel panic UI is insufficient even though its the closest attempt we have to fixing the problem we have.

Missions are not an answer to this, and anya ttempt to label missions as singleplayer is misleading and irresponsible for the communities development. When i hear singleplayer I expect an AI on a map where I put it I can play against, the classic skirmish AI system. Missions is not that. Its a form of singleplayer yes, but its more campaign or extra game modes. I don't want a campaign, or an extra game mode, I want to play real singleplayer, and by labelling missions as singleplayer and saying 'that's enough', as a player, your conning me, and new users will resent it.

missions == missions
extra game mode == extra game mode
singleplayer == singleplayer

singleplayer != missions
missions != extra game mode
extra game mode != singleplayer

[Hobo Joe]

For once I agree with AF, more important than anything else is getting all basic lobby functionality in-game, so people can launch the game as they would a commercial RTS and play against AI or join online games etc.


The out-of-game lobby is a gigantic turnoff for anyone trying to get into the game.

[quantum]

The lobby does not need to be full screen (see quake live), it could just be styled in a gamey way. We are working on that. It can be made full screen anyway, if it's beneficial. The player won't need to know it's separate from the engine.

I disagree that skirmish is singlepayer and missions/campaigns are not. I think they are all singleplayer, in fact imo skirmish is more like simulated multiplayer, it's a botmatch. Also who said "that's enough"? A lot of progress is being made.

[luckywaldo7]

For once I agree with AF, more important than anything else is getting all basic lobby functionality in-game, so people can launch the game as they would a commercial RTS and play against AI or join online games etc.


The out-of-game lobby is a gigantic turnoff for anyone trying to get into the game.

For the last time, bolting singleplayer onto a windowed lobby app doesnt work. New players are just as clueless after the features added as before, its only a small minority that goes hunting and finds the new functionality. They're expecting something like when you load up starcraft or supreme commander.

Spring is a dismal failure in this regard, and is one of the reasons I load up supcom or starcraft 2 when I want to play a quick AI RTS match, even though I know about springlobbys singleplayer mode, its just far too much effort. Even Zs kernel panic UI is insufficient even though its the closest attempt we have to fixing the problem we have.

Missions are not an answer to this, and anya ttempt to label missions as singleplayer is misleading and irresponsible for the communities development. When i hear singleplayer I expect an AI on a map where I put it I can play against, the classic skirmish AI system. Missions is not that. Its a form of singleplayer yes, but its more campaign or extra game modes. I don't want a campaign, or an extra game mode, I want to play real singleplayer, and by labelling missions as singleplayer and saying 'that's enough', as a player, your conning me, and new users will resent it.

missions == missions
extra game mode == extra game mode
singleplayer == singleplayer

singleplayer != missions
missions != extra game mode
extra game mode != singleplayer

I take it you guys didn't click on Teu's link? :D

[Hobo Joe]

The lobby does not need to be full screen (see quake live), it could just be styled in a gamey way. We are working on that. It can be made full screen anyway, if it's beneficial. The player won't need to know it's separate from the engine.

I disagree that skirmish is singlepayer missions/campaigns are not. I think they are all singleplayer, in fact imo skirmish is more like simulated multiplayer, it's a botmatch. Also who said "that's enough"? A lot of progress is being made.

This is awesome and I hope it happens soon.

[Argh]

The lobby does not need to be full screen (see quake live), it could just be styled in a gamey way. We are working on that. It can be made full screen anyway, if it's beneficial. The player won't need to know it's separate from the engine.

Do you want art yet? I might be willing to submit something for that.

I agree that it doesn't matter if it's "in engine" or not, although a fullscreen implementation looks much better and is a lot more immersive.

Couple of comments about the current UI/design (as posted):

1. Needs a tab / button / whatever that will take players to backstory explanation.

2. Still needs structural support for a true campaign where missions are only unlocked after previous ones have been beaten, in the classic genre mode (one of the major things that was missing from AppLauncher as shipped with P.U.R.E.).

3. Instead of bothering with some complex UI for AI skirmish, at least on the front end, I'd suggest a button that will quick-launch a random skirmish at Easy, Normal, Hard levels of difficulty (however you want to implement that) and let the client select from the available maps. Voila, endless skirmish with almost no end-user pain. Nothing wrong with the full setup, ofc, but even there, K.I.S.S. applies- I think that the way it was done for Warcraft III was undeniably elegant and rock-solid.

4. First launch and until unchecked, show end-users hints, and a direction towards the manual (do you guys have a full manual yet? If not, you need to write one).

[koshi]

3. Instead of bothering with some complex UI for AI skirmish, at least on the front end, I'd suggest a button that will quick-launch a random skirmish at Easy, Normal, Hard levels of difficulty (however you want to implement that) and let the client select from the available maps. Voila, endless skirmish with almost no end-user pain. Nothing wrong with the full setup, ofc, but even there, K.I.S.S. applies- I think that the way it was done for Warcraft III was undeniably elegant and rock-solid.

SpringLobby's simpleinterface. Been available for well over 8 months now. 0 interest to use it from game developers, so I stopped advancing it a while back.

[Forboding Angel]

Well, we have to know it exists first...

[koshi]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 79#p366279

[Teutooni]

For once I agree with AF, more important than anything else is getting all basic lobby functionality in-game, so people can launch the game as they would a commercial RTS and play against AI or join online games etc.


The out-of-game lobby is a gigantic turnoff for anyone trying to get into the game.

For the last time, bolting singleplayer onto a windowed lobby app doesnt work. New players are just as clueless after the features added as before, its only a small minority that goes hunting and finds the new functionality. They're expecting something like when you load up starcraft or supreme commander.

Spring is a dismal failure in this regard, and is one of the reasons I load up supcom or starcraft 2 when I want to play a quick AI RTS match, even though I know about springlobbys singleplayer mode, its just far too much effort. Even Zs kernel panic UI is insufficient even though its the closest attempt we have to fixing the problem we have.

Missions are not an answer to this, and anya ttempt to label missions as singleplayer is misleading and irresponsible for the communities development. When i hear singleplayer I expect an AI on a map where I put it I can play against, the classic skirmish AI system. Missions is not that. Its a form of singleplayer yes, but its more campaign or extra game modes. I don't want a campaign, or an extra game mode, I want to play real singleplayer, and by labelling missions as singleplayer and saying 'that's enough', as a player, your conning me, and new users will resent it.

missions == missions
extra game mode == extra game mode
singleplayer == singleplayer

singleplayer != missions
missions != extra game mode
extra game mode != singleplayer

I take it you guys didn't click on Teu's link? :D

Don't you see? This calls for immediate discussion!

[PicassoCT]

IMMEDIATE. WWRIGHT.
TOTAL IMMERSION, on that action has to be taken, once conclusion is reached, over how to start the discussion.
We should fight for the right of spring to have babys.

[SinbadEV]

WIP Plan Document

Things needed for this plan to work:

• Stable versions of a promotable game(s) with:
  o Dedicated Project Page (acceptable to be part of another site)
  o Single player start-up method with menu (either LUA or external application).
  o Single player ÔÇ£tutorialÔÇØ ÔÇ£missionsÔÇØ or ÔÇ£tutorialÔÇØ ÔÇ£campaignÔÇØ
• Lobby Client With:
  o Ability to support more then one installed Spring Version
  o Ability to separate rooms for installed Games from Not Installed Games (but group not installed versions of installed games close to installed games)
  o Ability to install missing components (games, maps, recent engine versions) by relatively simple interface (preferably double click, click yes)
  o Ability to launch/return to ÔÇ£promotable gamesÔÇØ single player interface
• Server that supports Multiple engine versions (probably lock out ÔÇ£breakingÔÇØ versions and ÔÇ£vulnerableÔÇØ versions)
• Reliable Method to obtain missing components (games, maps, recent engine versions)
• Installer that can install these components (games, maps, target engine versions) and be tailored to the promotable games (or groups of games/mods, maps, lobbies etc)

[smoth]

I recognize the speaker sinbad and decline his motion!

[Teutooni]

If the goal is to enhance user experience the system design should be based on use cases and user requirements, not as a list of technical features to be implemented, imho. ~~

[SinbadEV]

If the goal is to enhance user experience the system design should be based on use cases and user requirements, not as a list of technical features to be implemented, imho. ~~

I'm not sure if this is directed at my posts but the technical specs are based on a "Idealized Use Case" that's sitting in my mind... It's really too bad your not psychic but as this is likely the case for most people I'll present it.

1. User hears about game
2. User goes to the site for that game, installs game
3. User plays game locally and learns how to play
4. User goes online and isn't hindered by the version of the game he has and does not break the version of the game he has by updating the engine (because different engine versions and game versions can exist simultaneously)
5. User sees that there are other games based on the same engine as the game they have been playing and may choose to Try them out, return to step 2

[Forboding Angel]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 79#p366279

I never even saw this thread. Might should have made a post about it in Games and Mods. I'll definitely check it out. Looks pretty neato tbh.

[AF]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 79#p366279

This does not count, why?
Current spring games do not have this interface. We have had that thread for a good while now with no observable realistic progress made in the community at large. Can the end user launch this interface directly from the start menu or desktop? What about features? Even Zwzsgs frontend has more options.

Users have been complaining from day 1 that its not obvious how you get from website to AI game. A new multiplayer lobby wont help that. We've done wonders on the actual AI, and we've made progress with the website and installer, but the actual bit that connects them that users expect the most, is for the most part, completely missing. Bolting them onto a lobby is not a solution, its a stopgap.

As for singleplayer, when the user says singleplayer, they mean what they played online, but with a single player, aka themselves. Missions are not the same, they are singleplayer games yes, but they are not the same game, just as much as one would call tower defence the offline mode of warcraft 3 online, theyre not the same game! Similar yes, but not the same, and by pushing that ideology onto the user your short changing them. They dont have your projects cultural and ideological views, theyre not going to fall for it, they're going to cut straight through the semantic wordy bull and complain ( or in 99% of cases give up ) .

It was demonstrated a long time ago that the lure of the promised land of spring is great enough as it is. The challenge is not to advertise for more players, its to tear down the DT wall surrounding initial access

[SinbadEV]

Mostly @AF:
While I agree that some multi-player independent method of reaching traditional "skirmish" games is separate from missions idealistically... What I think about as single-player ALSO included tutorial "missions" that teach me how to play... so I fee that BOTH are required for a complete single-player experience.