Boost Rushing - Page 4

Boost Rushing

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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luckywaldo7
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Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Image
Google_Frog wrote:AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGHH!!!!!!!
I knew it! Google_Frog is a pirate!
Google_Frog wrote:
For starting resources, I want to try 1000 because it means you can put more units on the field before you start stalling com+factory, which I hope would lead to more territory contesting early game and less compush-to-middle-while-spam-llt.
Is this with facplop or without? Higher start resources create a bit more blind RPS as more can be built before good scouting is achieved. If you take comm income into account you do not stall for 33 seconds if spending with the comm and factory, I think this is a good period of time. Lots of start resource amounts can be tried as tests to see what works well.
With facplop. And I know it is probably a bit high, but facplop and no boost start will lead to factories much earlier in the standard build order so scouts should be out faster. Not to mention, no boost on the rush unit(s) means it/they will take much longer to get out.

My reasoning was to make fusion start possible again, but I suppose this would be possible with less then 1000. Maybe somewhere around 800.
Google_Frog
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Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Google_Frog »

Pirate cries start with 'Y'

It takes 83 seconds to make a fusion with 12 bp, just over a minute if you make a bot con to help you out.

Math time!
Assuming no unpack time between solars it takes about 3:54 for the energy produced by a fusion to overtake the energy produced by 14 solars (980 cost). The time taken is measured from the start of construction which gives the solars the advantage, by the time they are completed they have made about 1k of energy. The final income difference is 7 in the fusion's favour. Just in case you wanted to know.

1000 resources may make the start feel too slow and over buff econ starts as they will have the spare resources to defend.
luckywaldo7
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Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Ah, well, as I have always said, fusion is under-powered, but that is a different issue.
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Pxtl
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Pxtl »

luckywaldo7 wrote:Ah, well, as I have always said, fusion is under-powered, but that is a different issue.
Now that they provide a longer-ranged pylon than solars, I don't think they are anymore.
Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Saktoth »

Google_Frog wrote:I have already said elsewhere why I think facplop is required and I have not seen any better solution to the problem facplop fixes.
If you had starting resources build at the regular rate, cooping on a sinlge factory wouldnt be nearly as good, because a factory gives you 50% more BP. Factory cooping is really a problem only with boost.
Assuming no unpack time between solars it takes about 3:54 for the energy produced by a fusion to overtake the energy produced by 14 solars (980 cost).
Wind 35m 2-2.2e on the tabula dick.
Fusion 1000m 35e. (1000/35=28.5)*2=57e.
Superfusion 4000m 225e. 4*57=228.
Geo 500m 25e. 57/2=28.5e.

Conclusion: Winds on a hill shit over all over e sources so hard there isnt even a contest. Supergeo is the only thing that stands up. Even on flats, they are still better than fusions.
Regret
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 19:04

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Regret »

I think introducing dgun against non-comm units from start would counter boost rush.
Kenku
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010, 06:19

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Kenku »

Regret wrote:I think introducing dgun against non-comm units from start would counter boost rush.
No, it would just increase it. The main boost rush is the com spilling its boost into defence structures. Re adding the Dgun would just bring back the BA issue of people dropping the com and dgunning stuff to death.
Edible
Posts: 72
Joined: 09 Feb 2008, 01:46

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Edible »

Regret wrote:I think introducing dgun against non-comm units from start would counter boost rush.
Read: "I dont like the fact that I cant dgun my team in CA without significant effort"

Also wouldnt that make comdrops far more nasty?
SirMaverick
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Joined: 19 May 2009, 21:10

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by SirMaverick »

Regret wrote:I think introducing dgun against non-comm units from start would counter boost rush.
CA had that once. Was removed.
Regret
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 19:04

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Regret »

Kenku wrote:No, it would just increase it.
It would allow comm to kill off boost rushed defenses.
Edible wrote:Read: "I dont like the fact that I cant dgun my team in CA without significant effort"

Also wouldnt that make comdrops far more nasty?
I don't play CA, so I don't care if I can't dgun in it easily. Merely offering what from my point of view seems like a plausible solution.

Yes it would make comm drops more 'nasty'. Don't forget to factor in that CA air transports are made of paper and die to just about anything.
SirMaverick wrote:CA had that once. Was removed.
Did it have boost rush issues at that time?
Kenku
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010, 06:19

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Kenku »

Regret: The fragility of air transports don't change with Dgun or not since your flying the dude in either way. And Im saying it would just increase it cause people wouldn't even need to build the boosted defences. They would just Dgun everything like they do in BA!
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Rafal99
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Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Rafal99 »

Imho limit the boost to a certain area around the startpos, like dgun can be limited in BA, and the problem should be mostly solved, while we still have a fast boost start instead of slow one.

Didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if it was already suggested.
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 21:48

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by CarRepairer »

Rafal99 wrote:Imho limit the boost to a certain area around the startpos, like dgun can be limited in BA, and the problem should be mostly solved, while we still have a fast boost start instead of slow one.

Didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if it was already suggested.
If the area is too small, you might not be able to boost that mex or wind right where you need it, costing you time (giving the enemy an advantage).

If it's too big, it's meaningless on small maps where the areas overlap.

There is never a perfect solution.
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Rafal99
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Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Rafal99 »

Make it depend on map size then?
Like radius = mapsize * 0.2 ?

You can also make it depend on distance between startboxes, for strange setups.
Regret
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 19:04

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Regret »

I just had an epiphany.

Players would spawn with a commander and a vulnerable hover constructor (can't be transported) which would have the boost instead.

That way people wouldn't risk sending a low hp unit into enemy base.
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knorke
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by knorke »

low hp for commanders when they have boost.
SirMaverick
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Joined: 19 May 2009, 21:10

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by SirMaverick »

Rafal99 wrote:Make it depend on map size then?
Like radius = mapsize * 0.2 ?

You can also make it depend on distance between startboxes, for strange setups.
Yeah, already suggested in beginning of this thread.
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 83#p440283
Regret wrote:Players would spawn with a commander and a vulnerable hover constructor (can't be transported) which would have the boost instead.
That way people wouldn't risk sending a low hp unit into enemy base.
I like this, because we don't need to change other units/game play, but just introduce a special boost unit.
knorke wrote:low hp for commanders when they have boost.
Easy raid target.
luckywaldo7
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Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Regret's idea is better than most of the other ones, but since you start with no resource for the com to use, what are you going to do with him? Compush of course! Which is lame because compush is boring.

I mean, at this point, what is the purpose of the commander? The commander was mostly to help defend against super aggressive early rushes, but really a static commander can do that just as well.

Hey, with a static commander you don't need to worry about instant defenses in bases either...
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Pxtl
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Pxtl »

luckywaldo7 wrote:Regret's idea is better than most of the other ones, but since you start with no resource for the com to use, what are you going to do with him? Compush of course! Which is lame because compush is boring.

I mean, at this point, what is the purpose of the commander? The commander was mostly to help defend against super aggressive early rushes, but really a static commander can do that just as well.

Hey, with a static commander you don't need to worry about instant defenses in bases either...
Yeah, the big problem with static comm is
1) For game ends it's an easy target. Scout it once and you know where it is.
2) You have to give it a huge nano-range to cap the nearby mexes, and then it can be a powerful repair-gizmo for a radius around your base and will seriously discourage raiding. This is both pro and con.
3) During late-game you can't use the mobile d-gun thing.

Maybe static tower that becomes mobile when you morph into dgun comm? But after morph it would actually lose some things - static comm could have moderately long-ranged gear (some kind of arcing homing missile so it will go over friendlies, with range of about 1000) that you'd have to ditch once it goes mobile or else mobile comm would be OP. Be tricky to balance so that it's not either (a) useless for defense, or (b) OP vs. raiding game.

Initial static-comm is anti-raiding defense and bas-builder. Late-game comm is the dragon-slayer D-gun wielding mobile.

If you want to be really fancy, you could somehow limit a mobile comm to a small area. Say the comm is 2-parts - an unarmed, non-building tower and a slow gunship that refuses any orders outside of a fixed radius from the tower - it's tethered by an energy-beam. You can build more towers (comm pylons) but they're 500 each and the comm won't jump gaps in pylons. If you lose your last tower, the comm-ship dies. This would also encourage bringing AA on offensive missions.

But yeah - just no atlas-transporting comm will solve most offensive comm problems.
Edible
Posts: 72
Joined: 09 Feb 2008, 01:46

Re: Boost Rushing

Post by Edible »

Regrets idea seems great, though it wont always lead to compush, having it assist your fac seems just as viable (early skirm spam > Compush) though that is something to watch out for.

Also start points will be slightly weird with two units spawning.
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