Health Care

[Pxtl]

No, the Republicans are 100% invested in their position on the healthcare bill. At this point, they really can't back down, because they've thrown around so much vitriol that they really have no other option.

I mean, if they'd just said "I really don't agree with the healthcare bill, there are some serious issues with it and I feel it should go right back to the drawing board" they could get away with saying "well, I talked to Mr. Obama and we thrashed out some issues and I'm happy with what we came up with".

But the Republicans haven't been doing that. They've cast the healthcare bill as some hellacious socialist monster that will destroy America. They've supported the TeaBaggers who think Obama some secret muslim communist. They've drawn a hard line in the sand and duct-taped their testicles to it.

At this point, any compromise looks like making a deal with Satan himself.

Here, read it from somebody on the inside: Conservative think-tank member David Frum

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be ObamaÔÇÖs Waterloo ÔÇô just as healthcare was ClintonÔÇÖs in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not ClintonÔÇÖs 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

[Caydr]

Yes, the current people are 100% invested, but their failure to block the bill and the subsequent general republican realization that's coming - that they've been lied to about what the bill actually is - will hopefully lead to some turnover.

The people who fill the vacancies, whether D or R, will not have their balls on the line anymore.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic. I'd just like to see less retards playing politics only for their own gain and with pride and party talking points being their only moral compass. Just do what you've been elected to do: represent your constituents and do what's best for them.

[tombom]

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-934 ... 5/fulltext

[Machete234]

I dont see what you could have against a new health system.

Dont you think its somehow immoral to make "business" with people who need medical help?
If they're not insured they will have to pay themselves or die.

The way I understand it the systems in europe are mixed economies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

Wiki says even the US are a mixed economy, so saying this new health care system has something to do with socialism is nonsense.

[Caydr]

Well there's no such thing as a pure market-driven economy, not even the people who have eleven broken pickup trucks in their front yard and a shotgun in each pocket want all that would be implied by a pure-market economy. Same as pure socialist. There's no such thing, as far as I know.

Every economic model is a mixture of the two since by definition a government exists only by providing services in exchange for taxes. As time has passed, the expected level of service has increased, and the expected level of taxation and direct government control has decreased.

The role of western government today is to simply provide safety to its citizens. Nowadays that is expected to include healthcare, except that America has lagged behind. Tell most any American who is unfamiliar with the outside world (most of them, not all) that their country is lagging behind the rest of the world and they'll, ah, shall we say, rip off your head and shit down your neck while screaming about how they're the most advanced nation in the world.

[Forboding Angel]

They aren't necessarily guaranteed to get it, just pursue it.

Yes, you understand.

Perhaps you can enlighten all of us uneducated morons as to why so many world leaders come to the US to get healthcare (generally dictators, now that's entertaining)?

FYI, the vast majority of Americans agree with what I've been saying. So by your logic, if you live in the US you have 1 in 2 chance of being a blathering slobbering moron, and in actuality a 2 out of 3 chance.

Nice. It's also good to know that 1/2 - 2/3rds of Americans never make it past the power button on their computers. Good to know. Funny, we seem to be the only ones capable of doing simple addition.

[FLOZi]

Oh you can get the best treatment in the world in the US, no doubt.

It's just that most people living in the US can't afford said best treatment, or often, any treatment whatsoever.

[RogerN]

Personally, the new health care plan is probably going to cost me a lot of money. I work for a small company which provides health insurance for its employees. Unfortunately, though, because we're so small we don't get good rates - this is compounded by the fact that over half of our employees are 50+ years old. Therefore our plan is expensive. It's so expensive, in fact, that even though we have a $4000 deductible we apparently qualify as having a "cadillac" plan under Obama's new health care system. So we'll probably be taxed at 40% of the value of the health insurance, or whatever the exact figure is.

[Forboding Angel]

Interestingly enough... I own my own business and atm I am the sole employee and don't buy health insurance simply cause I don't want it, don't need it, and can't afford to pay for it and all my other bills (I could get a really nice plan for only 60 bucks through blue cross blue shield, but I have more important things to pay for). Am I now going to be fined for not providing insurance for myself (I honestly don't know and don't care, if I wanted health insurance I would buy it (I can make myself afford it, but as I said I have better things to pay for like, gee I dunno, advertising?))? Now that would be funny.

[SpikedHelmet]

Yet the countries those world leaders come from more often than not have public healthcare.

The one real drawback of public healthcare is that it can sometimes lead to extended wait times for procedures and appointments and this is a major issue that is usually a permanent struggle. But I'd rather wait a little bit longer than not go at all.

Canada's health and social system is one of the few things I'm proud of my country for. Healthcare here is completely universal -- if you have a Medicare card you get in anywhere for free. Childbirth, broken leg, glue sprayed in your eyes, having that fungus that started growing on the end of your dick last weekend checked out, everything's free. Medication is either free or drastically-reduced price. There are public walk-in clinics and health and social services centers every-fucking-where.

There's also a private sector -- it's not seen much, but it's there, able to provide shorter wait times for specialized procedures at your own expense.

For all of this "omg socialism" bullcrap, you do realize it's too late, right? Effigies of socialism are all around you -- public schools, apartment buildings, unions, public transportation, public/low-cost housing, employment insurance, employment benefits, etc, are all things socialists struggled for years to have put in place.

If you don't like it, you're more than welcome to move to a country that doesn't have socialist influence engrained into it. If you can find one. I was going to try and think of one but I can't.

[PicassoCT]

I just find it oustanding how long that cold-war paranoi lasts, even after everything socialist (except northkorea) is gone. At that rate our grand children will have a tough battle against drugs, because those will be the next american flag of freedom to defend against the pure evil (of osama bin ladin who condems drugs, alcohol and such stuff)

Just imagine there comes a cold war with china- how long they would ban chinese foods as evil, generations living without wantans, just because its patriotic.

[Caydr]

There you have it Forboding, stay in America and put up with being forced against your will to have the same health insurance the rest of the developed world enjoys, or find a third-world country somewhere and enjoy your "freedom".

People need to look at the big picture, what do you think costs more on average:
a) paying for health insurance
b) not paying for health insurance, eventually needing it, then bankrupting yourself and anyone that cares to help you?

It's just like the people that are so bitchy about cigarettes coming into the crosshairs finally. "You're taking away mah freedom to get cancer and give it to those around me!" Even the (seemingly) obvious moral reasons aside, stop and think about the economic cost incurred by your early death, and the early death of the people you're slowly killing around you. Or how about the medicare costs when they need to devote hospital space and equipment to keeping your ungrateful ass alive in your old age since you need a machine to keep you breathing.

Freedom is not the freedom to cause harm to other people. Now a portion of your taxes are being used to bail out companies that might have been in a slightly better position if they weren't constantly eating the cost of bankruptcies caused by medical bills. Hundreds of thousands of americans go bankrupt every year due to medical expenses. That money has to come from somewhere. Higher interest rates? More difficulty in getting a loan or mortgage? This means that businesses have higher startup and inventory costs since they rarely buy things using cash in hand. So the cost of everything rises.

The ignorant American worldview, that "I don't need it now so I'll never need it, planning ahead is for fags, I know my rights, it's in the constitution I just said so" etc, etc, etc... it's a crock of shit. Everything is related. The selfish, short-sighted attitude of your bankers just killed the world's economy, and your own selfish, short-sighted attitude will inevitably come back to bite you in the ass eventually.

[zwzsg]

I'd like to remind you that one of the last communist country on earth, Cuba, has a better health system than its close neighbour the US.

[PicassoCT]

So good healthcare for the riches, no matter how small that group is and the rest should try to help themselves or beg for private charity to happen.
I dislike the idea, that somebody i consider a good chap or who has contributed something to some project i whorship, all of the sudden disappears and nobody cares for him but he himself and maybee (if they are not out of money/ have a private dislike/ or avoid drugusers or other troublechilds) charity like the salvation army.
There is no socialism in giving my state, whoever is governing it the order to use my tax to help such a indvidual, no matter if i know of his contributions or if i harvest privat detest for his looserdownfall, it is just fairness, something important to every competition. Without it gents, no race, no game, no true winner.

[zwzsg]

I own my own business and atm I am the sole employee and don't buy health insurance simply cause I don't want it, don't need it, and can't afford to pay for it and all my other bills (I could get a really nice plan for only 60 bucks through blue cross blue shield, but I have more important things to pay for).

I still have trouble coping with the concept of buying insurance only when you need it.

Also, I'm curious, what happens if tomorrow you discover you have a cancer?

[SinbadEV]

Personally, the new health care plan is probably going to cost me a lot of money. I work for a small company which provides health insurance for its employees. Unfortunately, though, because we're so small we don't get good rates - this is compounded by the fact that over half of our employees are 50+ years old. Therefore our plan is expensive. It's so expensive, in fact, that even though we have a $4000 deductible we apparently qualify as having a "cadillac" plan under Obama's new health care system. So we'll probably be taxed at 40% of the value of the health insurance, or whatever the exact figure is.

I own my own business and atm I am the sole employee and don't buy health insurance simply cause I don't want it, don't need it, and can't afford to pay for it and all my other bills (I could get a really nice plan for only 60 bucks through blue cross blue shield, but I have more important things to pay for).

From my reading of a summary I found of the new bill, small business owners and individuals should actually get a break (probably in the form of a tax credit) on the cost of providing self or employees health insurance now.

Also, to chime in on the foreign leaders coming to US for healthcare... it's true, it does happen, and we judge them harshly for it... it comes down to asking yourself "Should Rich People have more of a right to life then poor people"... but more often "Should rich people have optional hip surgery to resolve pain that poor people just learn to live with"

[Pxtl]

Interestingly enough... I own my own business and atm I am the sole employee and don't buy health insurance simply cause I don't want it, don't need it, and can't afford to pay for it and all my other bills (I could get a really nice plan for only 60 bucks through blue cross blue shield, but I have more important things to pay for). Am I now going to be fined for not providing insurance for myself (I honestly don't know and don't care, if I wanted health insurance I would buy it (I can make myself afford it, but as I said I have better things to pay for like, gee I dunno, advertising?))? Now that would be funny.

Here's the problem, FA:

Let's say tomorrow you collapse. People find you and rush you to the ER. In the ER, you find you have a heretofore undetected but treatable condition... but the treatment is expensive, and the condition may kill you. Or you just get into a nasty car-accident that damages your guts. Either way, you get some unforeseeable medical condition that will be with you for the rest of your life, and you get it while you're not insured.

Congratulations! Not only are you bankrupt, you also will never, ever ever be able to buy insurance in the future... or at least, that would have been the case if not for Obama's plan.

But regardless of Obama's plan, you should have insurance. Not so you can go to the doctor for free, because if something happen you don't want that to be the end of your life as an independent American.

You're probably in your late 20s, early 30s, right? Most of us Spring guys are, since that's the age of OTA players. This is the age when the unluckiest of us start having this shiat happen to them. A buddy of mine found out last year or so that his ex-boyfriend died of pancreatic cancer. This isn't like home insurance - you lose your house uninsured, and it means you've got to work for an extra decade or two of your life. This is worse. This means you'll go bankrupt... probably repeatedly, and at the end of your life you'll make your family go bankrupt. If you become uninsurable in the USA because of a chronic medical condition, you are permafucked.

Get insurance.

[zwzsg]

Also, to chime in on the foreign leaders coming to US for healthcare...

US is far from the only country where rich foreigner go for health care.

[PicassoCT]

Some avoid Europe since our judges started to arrest them, and were independt for enough to see it through. Gadaffis son, man we might no have cheap oil, but our judges have ballz of steel

[zwzsg]

Or Pinochet arrest when he seeked medical treatment in London.