Radeon 5870 is a monster

[Wartender]

i bought a laptop a few months ago with an integrated HD 3200. big mistake. This is recent, and the linux support sucks, i've had endless problems. Just getting spring to work took weeks. 3d stuff in linux like the cube, etc. is really buggy, and spring still has it's bugs. Performance is about 2x under Vista (which makes me very sad as i have to use vista when i use my laptop). when i upgraded to 9.04 ubuntu died. i had to reinstall 8.10 because of my gfx.

i agree, if ATI can make their linux support halfway decent i will consider them again, but so far i've been very disappointed.

[Caydr]

How many months ago? I trust you're getting a free W7 upgrade.

What can Linux do that Windows 7 can't, besides be free (W7 is free with any computer) and cripple your software/hardware selection? I admit I've never tried it, but I've never heard a compelling argument to make me want to, either. It seems to be like Mac OS except you get to be smug around a different demographic. It's more secure, since nobody wants to be bothered targeting such a small group. It's faster, since bloatware would be nonexistent on a geek OS. It's more stable, because both of the drivers that are written for it have been in constant development for 35 years.

Maybe in another 5 or 10 years it'll be something more than a tech demo only useful for ubergeeks and soccer moms. Until then, I'm not into self-punishment and there's a Windows version of everything I could ever want. Why rebel against an OS that has no significant flaws? This isn't fanboyism, I'm just being pragmatic. I like going to a store and not needing to research every purchase to know if it'll work for my OS. I've got a selection of software and games for my every whim. You're not running a corporate server, why not just take the easy road and use what everyone else is using?

I understand if you don't want to be a conformist - I use a Cowon player that nobody's ever heard of because it's the best for my needs, and I avoid iPods and iPhones like the plague because, among other things, I just don't want to be "one of THOSE people". But if iPods weren't more expensive for less features, I'd give in eventually and buy one.

[Master-Athmos]

Linux is a perfect OS and in the end superior to Windows. It's just no good for the average Joe who just wants to "use" a PC. Despite some slightly "user-friendly" distributions it's still far too technical and complex - most people even have problems (un)installing drivers on Windows and now try to explain to them everything they have to know about it in Linux...

I see no chance of Linux being a real threat to Windows until there's a really "dumbed down" version of it. Try to suggest this in a Linux forum though and prepare to get massacred (taking away the all holy control over the system - oh noez!). It probably would fail at getting any real attention in terms of consumer software anyway and as DirectX is Microsoft property and will stay that way there's no way for Linux ever being a gamer platform...

You shouldn't try to make Windows look better than Linux because it isn't. You're right though that when it comes to gaming and the average Joe there's no real reason as to why you should make Linux look like the way to go as that's a bad idea...

[Caydr]

Well holy brahmin, that's not the reply I was expecting.

My point is, this order must be followed:
1) Make the OS simple to use
2) Get wide distribution
3) Become relevant to normal people
4) Get upset when you don't get good drivers

It's real noble of NV to give Linux users good drivers - but if they hadn't "wasted" those developers' time, they might not be in the untenable situation they now find themselves in.

I recognize that Linux is ten times the OS that Windows will ever be. But it's a Rolls Royce in China, if you get my meaning. You can't even buy tires that fit.

Where do people get off complaining that LINUX drivers for OPENGL aren't in a constant state of readiness in case a game is released? What was the last OGL game that was released? What was the last significant game released for Linux? Descent 3?

It's not a perfect world, and the only thing wonderful OGL/Linux compatibility has done for this engine is hold it back. Argh needs to reprogram the whole bloody thing just to get transprent objects working, meanwhile transparency is considered such an elementary thing for DirectX that DX11 is introducing a totally new way of rendering it to be easier and more realistic. Watch the mech demo, it's unreal.

[Master-Athmos]

My point is, this order must be followed:
1) Make the OS simple to use
2) Get wide distribution
3) Become relevant to normal people
4) Get upset when you don't get good drivers

While excluding the last point your list really isn't something that should describe how an OS should turn out. Linux is pretty much perfect the way it is: It's an OS that gives you access to what your computer possibly can let you access. That together with its stability and open-sourceness is what makes it "unbeatable" (at least nowadays). It has a "disadvantage" though: It's rather complicated / complex but well that's just due to the nature of how computers work...

Windows on the other hand now gives you only a tiny bit of access of what you should be able to have. That's a disadvantage. At the same time though this leads to the advantage of being way more easy to handle. This is the main reason why it's the better choice for the "average Joe". There nowadays may be people saying that with Ubuntu & Co there exist "easy" distributions being a perfect Windows replacement (if DirectX games and so on aren't in your interest). I say it's a nice development but it's nowhere near the Windows ease of use. You may have a fire&forget interface that is pretty much as easy to use as that from Windows but once you go beyond that it's over. It starts with drivers you have to install and ends with people realizing that they can't use a damn of what software their local electronics superstore offers...

But don't forget that Linux isn't a small underdog movement aspiring towards becoming the greatest OS in the world - it actually is the big number one global player in its main areas of use. Or in other words: You won't make it too far with Windows in the IT and science world as Linux dominates here simply because here good use can be made of all the possibilities Linux offers which wouldn't be possible with Windows like that (and would cost you buttloads of money every decade)...

Where do people get off complaining that LINUX drivers for OPENGL aren't in a constant state of readiness in case a game is released? What was the last OGL game that was released? What was the last significant game released for Linux? Descent 3?

You're pretty close minded here. Games usually don't use OpenGL nowadays because it started to fall behind in terms of its featureset. That imo in fact partially was lazyness but it also happened due to people not wanting that as e.g. the CAD sector (which is very OpenGL dependant) wanted a "slow progression" (for various reasons) to give you a rough idea...

You're also very wrong on the last game using OpenGL. Many games after Descent 3 used it. The latest I know of should have been Quake Wars (in general all the ID games and those using their engines are based on OpenGL)...

It's not a perfect world, and the only thing wonderful OGL/Linux compatibility has done for this engine is hold it back.

I don't think you can say that. The Linux port of course needed its worktime to do but it's not like this brought Spring's development to a crawl (plus you can do Linux servers and so on now). Depending on OpenGL also isn't that bad in terms of technology. You might not be able to touch the latest DirectX10 / 11 hardware gizmos but that's not really a problem here as we even didn't really touch the DirectX8 level - i.e. shaders and so on (currently only available via making your Lua script language mess around with the rendering). So it's not like OpenGL is holding Spring back - it just doesn't touch certain features...

Argh needs to reprogram the whole bloody thing just to get transprent objects working, meanwhile transparency is considered such an elementary thing for DirectX that DX11 is introducing a totally new way of rendering it to be easier and more realistic. Watch the mech demo, it's unreal.

You have a totally wrong understanding here. Transparencies are not in Spring because of being very complex / not possible in OpenGL but simply because the renderer did not include them. We now can discuss as to why this was excluded when writing it (I'd say not having to work on this end gave you a performance advantage) but it's very possible with OpenGL - somebody would just have to do it. As nobody felt like it lately Argh managed to find a workaround by using the shader technology he can access via Lua - nothing more...

Also be way more careful in terms of what to believe: DirectX11 introduces no "new way of rendering". That's total advertisement bullshit. Don't fall for artisticly extremely well done demos showing some new GPU circuits running. OpenGL will catch up with time anyway. Would be stupid anyway to do Spring with DirectX11 features as next to nobody could play your game now or in the near future (as it takes years until a reasonable amount of people have computers with the respective featureset)...

[Wartender]

fun link

[==Troy==]

How many months ago? I trust you're getting a free W7 upgrade.

What can Linux do that Windows 7 can't, besides be free (W7 is free with any computer) and cripple your software/hardware selection? I admit I've never tried it, but I've never heard a compelling argument to make me want to, either. It seems to be like Mac OS except you get to be smug around a different demographic. It's more secure, since nobody wants to be bothered targeting such a small group. It's faster, since bloatware would be nonexistent on a geek OS. It's more stable, because both of the drivers that are written for it have been in constant development for 35 years.

Maybe in another 5 or 10 years it'll be something more than a tech demo only useful for ubergeeks and soccer moms. Until then, I'm not into self-punishment and there's a Windows version of everything I could ever want. Why rebel against an OS that has no significant flaws? This isn't fanboyism, I'm just being pragmatic. I like going to a store and not needing to research every purchase to know if it'll work for my OS. I've got a selection of software and games for my every whim. You're not running a corporate server, why not just take the easy road and use what everyone else is using?

I understand if you don't want to be a conformist - I use a Cowon player that nobody's ever heard of because it's the best for my needs, and I avoid iPods and iPhones like the plague because, among other things, I just don't want to be "one of THOSE people". But if iPods weren't more expensive for less features, I'd give in eventually and buy one.

Interesting, but I have heard something _very_ similar over a decade ago, when windows was just starting, and MAC was the "best" system to use.

Its not what is better. Its about competition. IE was crap, for decade. until FF came. But I am still glas that FF overtook the IE. WindowsXP was there for years, until MAC and linux started to take up large portion of windows users, then we had failvista, and going to have fail7. But at least its a "pro"gress.

Personally I prefer to know that the machine which I bought is MINE. Windows is gradually turning into DRM-infested bloatware (look at xbox as an example). But thats just what matters to me.

[jK]

Just ignore Caydr. He is a troll and fanboy with zero knowledge.
If the community will get more ppl like him, we won't get into GSOC10.

[Caydr]

Interesting, but I have heard something _very_ similar over a decade ago, when windows was just starting, and MAC was the "best" system to use.

Once upon a time, Fords weren't prone to exploding outside my house. True story, I even posted pictures of it here a few years back. Totally irrelevant to the situation at hand though.

Its not what is better. Its about competition. IE was crap, for decade. until FF came. But I am still glas that FF overtook the IE.

IE is still entrenched in the ignorant and stupid, it hasn't been overtaken AFAIK. Basically, it's great for all the people who only use a computer for the things that Linux computers are used for - email and 4ch.

WindowsXP was there for years, until MAC and linux started to take up large portion of windows users, then we had failvista, and going to have fail7. But at least its a "pro"gress.

Windows XP isn't a "was", it's still the most dominantly-used operating system. There are more people who would rather use any one MS operating system from the last 10 years than would rather use Linux and Mac combined.

The majority of those people just aren't aware that a better solution is available, or simply don't need anything more than Windows 2000 or XP does for them. And for this reason, Windows 2000 and XP have quite good driver support from ATI and if you release any software whatsoever, it had better work on XP at the very least.

Personally I prefer to know that the machine which I bought is MINE. Windows is gradually turning into DRM-infested bloatware (look at xbox as an example). But thats just what matters to me.

Can you be more specific or are you just repeating what you've heard all the charismatic people in long-sleeve turtlenecks say? There's copy protection, which is about as effective as the copy protection on all other software. If you want to have total sovereign control over your computer, it's there if you want it, same as with Linux but with considerably less difficulty.

Just ignore Caydr. He is a troll and fanboy with zero knowledge.
If the community will get more ppl like him, we won't get into GSOC10.

I troll in my off-hours, yes, forums are more fun than television. What is it I have zero knowledge of? And if you feel that people who don't share your opinion are a threat to you, I need to get my list of dictator names to invoke. Reality-denial when presented with obvious facts is pretty much where I see the whole Linux movement right now.

It's a great OS for servers and other computers that only ever need to do one thing. Myself, I quite like having 70 games and applications installed simultaneously so I can do everything I need to in one place.

My point is this: people use Linux either because they're professionals in one line of work or they want to show the world how nerdcore they are. No professional graphic artist uses Linux exclusively. Maybe they use Gimp? But then they dual-boot into Windows when they need all the features and functionality required for professionals.

Virtually everyone who uses Linux dual-boots or otherwise has Windows available to them, because they NEED IT for software compatibility. With that in mind, what is the point of bitching over ATI not spending millions of dollars to give you world-class driver support when it's just for the sake of a pissing contest between Linux and the real world? If you want to play any modern game, you're NOT doing it on Linux. If you want to use CAD software, you're either doing it as a hobby which means you're using Linux just to be hardcore, or you're doing it professionally which means you can afford to buy a $50 NV graphics card for better drivers.

I'm not dissing Linux, I am fully aware that it is an incredibly flexible OS with a feature set that is ideal for professional software developers and such - for hardcore geeks.

[==Troy==]

DRM bloatware is about the MS plans to force the computer manufacturers to install a chip to be considered as "allowed" hardware for the future windows platforms. Xbox has it, just in slightly different iteration.



I once have heard a convo on IRC, which was going something like this :

1) I cannot understand why people are using Linux. Its so much worse than FreeBSD!
2) Think about this : how many people are using Windows, and how many of them have never seen a computer.


I do not want to turn this thread into an OS flamewar, I have no doubts that all of us has been in one already in the past. And its effectively the same as religion.


All I want to say is that just concentrating on one system and dismissing others is wrong. And it is another reason I support nvidia, even if life for them is not going well in the last year.

Tbh, linux offers to write drivers for HW for FREE. So I cant really see a problem with every HW provider to have them.


(p.s. I have introduced over a dozen of people to linux. Only 2 of them had to turn it down because their PC HW was not supporting linux. None of the rest ever did give up on it. And those people were "housewifes" "moderate gamers" "business people" and "scientists".)


Edit: Oh, and btw, the thing about MAC 15 years ago, problem is that noone can prove that it is not going to happen to windows, and if it will, youd rather have a good and well-prepared alternative to switch to.

[aegis]

servers and other computers that only ever need to do one thing.

[Auswaschbar]

Tbh, linux offers to write drivers for HW for FREE. So I cant really see a problem with every HW provider to have them.

My printer can print under linux (64bit). Yet the only available windows drivers are 32bit, no 64bit support available.
My soundcard works wonderfull in linux, yet in windows I simply cannot get more than 4 speakers working, no surround ever.
My scanner works ok under linux, yet it doesn't work on any windows newer than XP.

[Caydr]

Tbh, linux offers to write drivers for HW for FREE. So I cant really see a problem with every HW provider to have them.

My printer can print under linux (64bit). Yet the only available windows drivers are 32bit, no 64bit support available.
My soundcard works wonderfull in linux, yet in windows I simply cannot get more than 4 speakers working, no surround ever.
My scanner works ok under linux, yet it doesn't work on any windows newer than XP.

Unfortunatley, it can't properly run a virtual machine on a Core 2 Duo.

servers and other computers that only ever need to do one thing.

That one thing isn't games - that's the point I'm trying to make. It's silly to expect world-class driver support for hardware acceleration on an OS dominantly used for hardcore professional stuff like running web servers (not VMs though) or developing software.

The reason ATI has been able to pull ahead is that they're concentrating on appealing to actual users. They brought out DX 10.1 compatibility that NV still doesn't have - this is the only reason their cards are capable of competing with NV hardware in a few notable games. They're the first with DX11 compatibility, which makes them the hardware for choice for people buying computers right now. They've had hardware tesellation for years, and now it's a required feature for DX11 that NV is apparently going to try to emulate through software.

They're making the right choices both economically and for consumers, and people are turning this around and saying that lacking support for the least-used OS makes their stuff somehow inferior.

[jK]

The reason ATI has been able to pull ahead is that they're concentrating on appealing to actual users. They brought out DX 10.1 compatibility that NV still doesn't have - this is the only reason their cards are capable of competing with NV hardware in a few notable games. They're the first with DX11 compatibility, which makes them the hardware for choice for people buying computers right now. They've had hardware tesellation for years, and now it's a required feature for DX11 that NV is apparently going to try to emulate through software.

Everything in this passage is either biased, incomplete or just wrong.

[Auswaschbar]

I hate SVN, I hate linux, and I hate smart people.

What did you expect?

[Caydr]

The reason ATI has been able to pull ahead is that they're concentrating on appealing to actual users. They brought out DX 10.1 compatibility that NV still doesn't have - this is the only reason their cards are capable of competing with NV hardware in a few notable games. They're the first with DX11 compatibility, which makes them the hardware for choice for people buying computers right now. They've had hardware tesellation for years, and now it's a required feature for DX11 that NV is apparently going to try to emulate through software.

Everything in this passage is either biased, incomplete or just wrong.

Or as we say in England: Completely accurate.

[aegis]

can't properly run a vm on a c2d

that problem had nothing to do with the vm, and I'm pretty sure the vm bug is actually in virtualbox... nothing to do with the operating system itself.

[smoth]

Linux is a perfect OS and in the end superior to Windows.

no

[AF]

Caydr, have you ever wondered what your non windows absed devices are running? Your washing machine? Your expensive camera? Your Cowol thingymajig? Your mobile phone? More often than not these thigns are running LINUX!!!

Gosh next you'll be telling me Open GL is everywhere!!!

Oh wait, it is...

Outside of Windows, it is used in almost every single piece of software imaginable. What do you think they render films with? What about Linux? OS X? Phone UIs? About the only major holdout against OpenGL is the windows platform.

Now cna we all please stop beign idiotic stubborn bastards and get on with our lives instead fo bickering about things we know nothing about?

[Caydr]

...And when I want to run a web server on my camera, it will matter to me that Linux is on it.

I think you must've stopped reading my post half-way through. I realize Linux is an extraordinary effort and by far the best operating system for any kind of professional situation. But for real people (selling great cars?) it might as well be DOS, it's... as Yahtzee put it, everything about Linux is twisted and impenitrible like a granite octopus.

I decided to give it a go fairly recently when a new version of... what is it... that one that's supposed to be super user-friendly came out. I didn't even get as far as burning it on a disc. Programmers shouldn't be allowed to develop software on their own, there needs to be an idiot involved in the process to say.... "wait, wtf is this?" and get confused out the ass to put things in perspective of how a normal person sees them.

I go to the Ubuntu site. I locate the download link, but read somewhere about how I should use a different desktop renderer.... thing. KDE vs... that other one. Gnome? And, oh, all the software that comes with it is worthless to anyone but a soccer mom, so I should install these packages. But those packages don't work with Ubuntu, only Debian, and aren't compatible with the version of KDE that's out right now, only the development version. Also apparently all my future children will get leprosy if I have an ATI card and I can just keep dreaming if I want to use Photoshop or Max. Packages? Desktop environments? Descent into the Win95 hell of searching for compatible drivers? No software to do any of the things I want? No games? Command line for anything beyond hitting the power button? Only available in Greenland? Developed by Hitler? Windows is good enough for me.