hmmm I found a satirik in my soup, mmmmm

[Forboding Angel]

but what is success forb? I don't think argh was ready for commercial release, in fact if I were to be so bold I would call his project an embarrassment. It was unable to successfully launch and argh released prematurely, these resulted in disaster. This isn't me trying to bash argh, I think it was probably humiliating for the dude and I feel a little bad for him. However, he chose to release something of that caliber.

Most of pure is a rush job, argh can try and double back on that now but his texture work shows that pretty obviously. There are other issues but I'll leave that up to artistic difference of opinion.

I do not think his project was successful. I think argh has succeed at being what he always has been great at hype.

So I am seriously asking, how was this a good thing?

Sorry, I'm only gonna bother replying to smoth here cause there's just too much otherwise, and remember, I'm not the one that originally said anything, so keep that in mind.

Smoth, you know darn well how anal retentive you are about models and textures, I ask again why something needs to long omgamazing when you're 2 feet from it. If you play other commercial games you will find that generally you have 1 camera view and the zoom of that camera is limited, it doesn't really take a genius to know why that is.

Calling PURE an embarrassment is far too bold if you ask me. More embarrassing is the unit movement in spring, it's appalling. How is it a disaster? It hasn't really had any time to pick up traction as an indie game. You gotta give it some time man, damn.

Doesn't look like a rush job to me, and I'm more critical of such things than a random user is likely to be.

It hasn't had time smoth. Give it time and a chance, you could even help by recommending it (even though I know you won't), but at the very least, you could stop bashing it. You and the others here never gave it a chance, how in the hell is it supposed to do amazingly well overnight when the lot of you do nothing but bash it here, and everywhere else possible.

That's why I call you guys a bunch of idiots, because it's possible that something could succeed, but instead of trying, you contribute to it's failure because it isn't your own pet project, and that is a weakness in character imo.

And speaking of people changing, you DID change smoth, and it started when you became a hardcore /b/tard, I didn't like hearing or being around it, so I stopped coming around, not to mention the wealth of personal issues I had at the time, that didn't help (was my own fault too, but that's a different story for a different day). You were always a very kind dick about certain things, and when you were being a dick you had really good reasons for it and put it out in such a way that it took off the rough edge. Now, in many cases, you treat people in public like they are your personal toilet and it makes me upset and at the same time sickens me. In private you are the same great guy I always thought I knew.

I suppose I have issues dealing with the personality changes from private to public speaking. Perhaps that's one (out of a vast many) of my character flaws.

[Forboding Angel]

The real question is how many journalists, websites, magazines, open source gurus, editoralists, etc.. wanted to talk about Spring then decided not to because it's not truely free of rights?

to be honest, i think only open source gurus would have the qualms you speak of. and to be even more honest, i don't think open source gurus really influence the average gamer that much.

i seriously do not believe that mainstream media would write any more about spring if there were no TA mods. in fact, since spring is behind several years graphics-wise, being mentioned in context of TA is the only chance spring actually has being mentioned by the mainstream media.

the TA gameplay has been developed by a large, professional team a long time ago and refined for over ten years, while most other mods have been made by like two guys in their free time. how could the quality possibly compare? TA mods will always be the flagship of the spring engine, and i personally believe efforts to undermine TA mods are actively hurting the engine and the community.

that is, they would be, if anyone actually listened to them. luckily, the devs seem to share my viewpoint.

Sigh, the sad part is, you're probably right :-/

[smoth]

Pure does not meet professional standards for art. Let alone what I see daily on moddb, it is rushed work. He wants to see it at 30$ have you looked at competing titles for the same cost? they are superior in graphics and gameplay, hell dude, I paid what 12 dollars for castle crashers and it was fabulous, I could list many other titles released by small teams on the xbox arcade. hell check this one out: http://www.moddb.com/games/philip-muwangas-hexy-trench

He wants way too much for something that was not ready. I understand giving something time to grow but it was not ready to be released in the first place. You say we contribute to it's failure because it isn't our pet project. I don't know about others but I do not try and aid it because I find argh a disagreeable person of low quality. I don't have the time to go out and sabotage him, that takes a lot of effort. His project failing is all his doing, I was noting but polite about it and the only disagreement he saw from me is my standard hatred for commercialization of anything.

Again, don't try and pin that on me. I don't like argh but I am not out there sabotaging him, he can do that well enough on his own.

[Boirunner]

Sigh, the sad part is, you're probably right :-/

i don't quite understand why this is be a bad thing. the more popularity the TA mods have, the more exposure other mods get.

do you think DOTA would have been successful if WC3 wasn't? or CS without half-life?

having an engine like spring is a fantastic, awesome opportunity to make games, and present them to a fairly large audience.

i guess i just cant understand why some people want to take away the reason the engine became popular in the first place.

[AF]

Regarding TA

Boirunner, you cant use TA content giving non TA content exposure as an arguement.

You see all the arguements of people not advertising spring due to the looming shadow of Atari are still valid.

You do raise a valid point about TA quality in terms of gameplay, but you see it in the wrong context.

So I put forth this analogy.

Spring is an economy, and TA is the black market of this economy.

Currently spring tries to draw in cash from elsewhere, but investors arent going to advertise spring because they see it as a pirate bay of sorts. Spring openly supports and accepts its TA black market knowing full well its not right. They make no effort to eradicate it!

Black markets can never be eradicated, and boost the real economy. Here the small growth of the black market, is turning the large potential growth of the spring economy into a net negative, cancelling out into a tiny growth overall.


My reccomendation to you guys in BA land?

Launch BAUniverse.com

You don't need the BA maintainers to do it, be that fat controller or Noize. The BA players alone have the resources and means to do it. Infact its almost been done with CA, and with Smug.

Regarding Smoth Forb PURE and Argh

P.U.R.E is not as simple a beast behind the scenes as you would imagine. Argh is not the only force at work, and I would not say it was argh entirely who released early. The guys under a lot of pressure.

Having said that, the quality of texturing in P.U.R.E is better than a lot of stuff in supreme commander, as is a lot of the new stuff in gundam.

Foreboding, I agree that a commercial game based on spring would be of benefit under the right circumstances. However I suspect that you in particular being open to this is partly because from where Im sitting of all the projects left, yours is the most likely to follow suite as the second commercial project spawned by spring in my opinion, and if that day comes I hope to watch and help. This is why I built the new http://wolfegames.com for argh and his backers.

[smoth]

supremecommander is low bar. I like to look at stuff like battleforge, dawn of war, c&c3 as far as who is the driving force behind pures premature release? I don't want to hear it, hellgate suffered and failed because it was released too early and it was a far superior game.

[overkill]

I do agree with smoth on the pure isn't a good showcase of spring thing. P.U.R.E does look and play rushed. Aside from some balance issues that could have been resolved with more thorough testing, and some pretty bad crash bugs on the commercial release, which again could have been found and fixed with better testing. PURE's graphics are disappointing. The interface is uninspired and sometimes cumbersome, though that was partially fixed, the actually models make me cringe.

I dont mean to bust argh's balls, i know he put a lot of work into pure, regardless of a reason. The main issue does not lie within the implementation of pure's style, as some would suspect, but the style itself. I will say, some of the models havea cool feel and are pretty unique, but others are boring and uninspired. The textures are all pretty horrid.

Argh's Implementations of his style was not really that bad, some issues, but the style is horrible. random panels detracting interest from the actual model. Random panels, that i hope to god arent reactive armor (being on ammo barrels and planes?!?) and random vents, that look like they are from air conditioners. These issues set aside, there are other issues, like overuse of rust (if someone let their tank get that rusty, they would no longer be in the military) and lack of preshading.

[Forboding Angel]

Foreboding, I agree that a commercial game based on spring would be of benefit under the right circumstances. However I suspect that you in particular being open to this is partly because from where Im sitting of all the projects left, yours is the most likely to follow suite as the second commercial project spawned by spring in my opinion, and if that day comes I hope to watch and help. This is why I built the new http://wolfegames.com for argh and his backers.

Oi well, I have said many times in the past, and as far as I am concerned it will never change, and that is the fact that Evolution will not be commercial. Even if it ever did I would think pricing around 5 or 10 bucks, but since it's not gonna happen there isn't much point discussing it. Evo is made for the spring community (and hopefully others as well) to enjoy. I would like nothing more than to get some official dev backing once we have a mostly complete project, that would be really neat.

Speaking on those terms, kaiser and I had been doing some planning of "Official forks", some of which that would in ways replicate TA style gameplay and game mechanics, as well as a lot of other crazy brainstormed ideas.

Yeah 30 bucks for pure is a bit on the high end, I have to agree with that. I was thinking more along in the 15 dollar range or so, but meh, that isn't my call to make. I have been doing a lot of working on trying to find digital publishers for Evolution, steam, impulse, etc. ATM it's looking like impulse is prolly our best bet. It doesn't seem as though steam is very interested unless you have a retail product, which is a damn shame, cause I really really really like steam.

[smoth]

10$ would be reasonable, like I told argh, if he had a bunch of fun scenarios I could see that.

I honestly think you should keep doing evo as a free project, I know shit is slowing down but dude, you can get a lot more people willing to help if they know it is for a project that is free and it gets you in the linux distros. I mean really it is getting better and it being free might get people interested and perhaps said people will even help recruit more talent to help you. keep the open attitude.

[CarRepairer]

Speaking on those terms, kaiser and I had been doing some planning of "Official forks", some of which that would in ways replicate TA style gameplay and game mechanics, as well as a lot of other crazy brainstormed ideas.

You just invented CA? Unless I misunderstood and you meant "forks of Evo." I still agree that people come to spring to play "TA" or as close to "TA" as possible.

[zwzsg]

No, CA is TA units with weird morph/overdrive/chicken def/etc.. gameplay.

He said TA gameplay with non-TA units.