I Am Leaving CA

[smoth]

oh no! free stuff!

[Evil4Zerggin]

Is America scary or are Americans just scared by default?

Mostly the latter, I'd say.

Of course action is still very unlikely but it looks like Zerg wants to participate more in something he could put on his CV without getting weird looks from prospective employers ("You were involved in a project that ripped content from a commercial game?"). Also the issue with recognition among opensource developers is there, obviously it's not exactly a good idea to champion a game that works on the "abandonware" principle as a success for open source development, it looks more like MS was right with "opensourcers are out to steal your IP!"

Exactly right.

Finally, to clarify:

• Nobody put me up to this. This is, with the reasons I've already listed, 100% my personal decision.
• I'm not asking anybody to do anything, except perhaps not to bother me about things which they already know the answer to. I'm not sure why anybody would insist that something else is the case.
• The reason I made this public is simple: I don't want to repeat myself, and I don't want people to have misconceptions about what I think. We've already amply demonstrated the danger of the latter.
• The possibility of my returning to CA later is just that--a possibility. I do not know for certain, and I don't want anybody to expect something that might not happen. In particular, I don't want CA to replace its TA IP purely on my account.
• I realize this was a sudden announcement. The reason I brought it up only recently is that I didn't really try to think through the IP issue and what it means for my work before. When I did think about it, I found that this is something I need to take care of sooner rather than later. Maybe it's different for you, and I'm not going to argue with that.

[SpikedHelmet]

Some of the "us versus them" mentality between *A modders and Spring developers is also out of irrationality. I'll admit it. I have very little respect for the "efforts" put into *A mods like AA, BA, CA, SA, and whatever else, because really they're just slight modifications of other people's work, stretching all the way back to Uberhack for OTA (which spawned AA, which spawned AA:Spring, which spawned everything else). And while a lot of you are starting to replace older content with your own crap (mainly CA) your "games" are little more than shallow, basic modifications of another game. And it pisses a lot of us who have actually put an enormous amount of work into designing an entire game from the ground up that the majority of the Spring community is infested with *A fanbois who jizz themselves at every single text tweak and stats change.

And also like Smoth said, I'm also very concerned that the hammer of justice will come down upon the Spring project and mercilessly destroy it without consideration for seperating those of us who worked hard to make our own shit and those of us who pimped up other people's work and slapped a new letter on it.

Then of course there's the fact that the Spring project as a whole has a very, very bad "rap" around the open-source development community because of the apparent domination of *A mods -- most see Spring as little more than a 3d RTS engine made specifically for people to make 3d TA mods, with very little real legitimacy. Which is a shame, because Spring is a hell of a lot more than a simple illegal upgrade of the TA engine which most people believe it is.

[Regret]

And it pisses a lot of us who have actually put an enormous amount of work into designing an entire game from the ground up that the majority of the Spring community is infested with *A fanbois who jizz themselves at every single text tweak and stats change.

Host your own server.

[Saktoth]

Things

This is very encouraging, but the points still stand: We cant ever be really popular, we cant ever be the 'flagship for opensource gaming' that we should be (Spring is more advanced than any opensource game out there and its already several years old). We are, rather, a pariah, because even if the IP owners dont care and the creators think what we are doing is great we have this legal boogeyman hanging over us.

And the IP-free mods have utterly failed for whatever reasons to capture a playerbase thus far, so we're still tied to TA.

Things

The 'BA sux' thing is a result of all the 'CA sux' stuff we get, and have been getting, since we started. The competition over players creates this oppositional mindset. Try and remember that Otherside doesnt represent us though. Of course we think our game is better though, or we wouldnt have made it that way.

In particular, I don't want CA to replace its TA IP purely on my account.

Its not why we are doing it, we are doing it because we always intended to and because you are right.

[smoth]

Of course we think our game is better though, or we wouldnt have made it that way.

as you should. If you didn't make it the best you can then you are not trying. While all projects are in the works, it is important that we do what we can do to the best of our ability.

[Gertkane]

I don't get how people can get a "holier than thou" attitude towards TA based mods and players. Fanboys? The TA based mods right now are the only ones balanced and playable enough to be enjoyed competitively over and over. No wonder the playerbase sticks to mods that have balance, diversity and ease of play (by that i mostly mean autohosts available 24/7).

Admittedly, the TA franchise has had a major headstart by it being an older game with cult following. So yes, there are a lot of TA fanboys in the playerbase, but not mostly for the wrong reasons. Talking like those who play TA based mods are just fanboys with premature erection problems and that the devs do close to nothing really does not give hope into believing that you are capable of rational thought.

Make your own mod playable, then talk down on the playerbase that just wants to play and have fun. Because right now, in terms of fun, balance and competitiveness there are no non-TA based mods out there good enough.

[Peet]

I don't get how people can get a "holier than thou" attitude towards TA based mods and players. Fanboys? (...) Talking like those who play TA based mods are just fanboys with premature erection problems and that the devs do close to nothing really does not give hope into believing that you are capable of rational thought.

The TA based mods right now are the only ones balanced and playable enough to be enjoyed competitively over and over. (...) Make your own mod playable, then talk down on the playerbase that just wants to play and have fun. Because right now, in terms of fun, balance and competitiveness there are no non-TA based mods out there good enough.

Uh huh. Your former point might be more convincing if you hadn't just declared all non-ta mods to be unplayable.

[Gertkane]

Im not saying they are unplayable, im saying that in terms of competitiveness on the long run, they do not compare to the popular TA ones. However, i do believe that i can be wrong.. If i am wrong, then tell me what non-TA based mod is balanced and competitive right now? And as diverse in terms of gameplay?

[smoth]

lol, someone talking out his ass.

[Gertkane]

If i am talking out of my ass, then do not evade my question and correct me, otherwise it is you who is talking out of your ass. Which you seem to be.

[smoth]

See the problem with your fanboyish rant is no one is attacking your precious *A mods on the point of balance or gameplay. That never has been an issue nor have we made statement questioning the sexual functionality of idividuals who like the *A mods. The non *A projects are playable, you call them "unplayable," and then next post you say "Im not saying they are unplayable." Quite the contradictory statement.

There appears to be a "holier than thou air" if you think theft is A-OK. However, that is the point, we never have agreed with the theft of the ta content. If the content was remade that is one thing but outright stolen is morally unacceptable. You would know that if you read the discussion instead of popping off defensively. Because we are not stealing and we have made our own content and we are saying because we can do it, they can do it. It isn't holier than thou, it is a call to arms and I have done several call to arms. The *a community has more players and thus more resources and yet only a handful of people stepped up and tried to help get the stuff redone. One of which was ME. I do not see you making ANY effort.

I have had this conversation in the past and dealt with several people who stood on the same shaky pedestal that you have yourself on. I am not going to get into a long debate with you over your perception of the "nonta" GAMES.

[CarRepairer]

nm

[Peet]

That is probably partially due to the public image (and/or Spiked's personal view) of CA as a ta mod (note how he listed AA, BA, CA, SA, etc), which of course is a realm it is slowly leaving. Obviously, its public reputation and image will lag behind its reality by some amount of time and/or state, and it is entirely possible that it will still be viewed as a TA clone for some time after its content cleansing is completed - if not indefinitely.

[Gertkane]

...

I think i defined what i meant by "playable" too many times already, and you taking what i said out of context makes me feel you have something personal about people that like to play spring because they just like to play fun and competitive games.
We, who play TA based mods do not play them because we are thieves or because we hate original content and its makers. I myself used to be a hardcore modder during RA2/YR days. I was involved in multiple total conversions (WW2, Futuristic, WW1) and they all reached stages where their updates became like BA has now, just little balance fixes.

While i applaud you on your effort to remake the models, your attitude is one of a dickhead. You are trying to rub something that you volunteered to do under my nose. Volunteering is not supposed to make you or someone else morally superior and eligible to use it as a crutch and i find it funny that you seem to think that it does.

It seems we both have deviated from our original points and maybe gotten a bit personal. Yours was a legitimate concern and i agree with it, non-stolen is better than stolen. Mine is that *A players and devs should still be treated respect and not as thieves or just retarded fanboys. I hope you agree.

[zwzsg]

The TA based mods right now are the only ones balanced and playable enough to be enjoyed competitively over and over. No wonder the playerbase sticks to mods that have balance, diversity and ease of play

Actually, if you ever had the opportunity to try non *A mods you would be surprised to see how much more balanced, diverse and easier to play than TA mods they are.

Make your own mod playable

Covered already.

talk down on the playerbase

Needing help on that point.

Because right now, in terms of fun, balance and competitiveness there are no non-TA based mods out there good enough.

There are, but everybody prefers to ignore them.

[Pxtl]

Well, he does have a certain (limited) point. Right now, BA is pretty much it. Things used to be different around when Gundam 1.11 came out and EE was still under active development, but BA (and its family of offshoots) have been ruling the roost for some time quite rightly.

What's the last release of EE? Was it even tested on the current version of Spring? When was the last version before that, and did it have any well-known outstanding bugs that were unfixed?

Same goes for 1944 (up until 5 minutes ago), and Star Wars - they can't really expect Spring players to still be playing their last versions... do they even work anymore? Gundam, at least, had bug-fixes of the old version, but still there is no core group of players keeping it alive like BA and CA have.

PURE is still brand new, any way you slice it, and Argh has frequently admitted that Nanoblobs fails at high-level play.

KP is excellent, but it's also very simple. Personally, I think that makes it even better than BA, but obviously most would disagree - they like their tech trees and resource management and all that crap. And KDR's smaller projects were never meant to be any more than something you play a few times to explore the gameplay and the novelty of it.

Other than KP, all of these games go private in between major releases, which are often years apart.

That basically leaves guys who want to play a full, mature RTS game with Gundam, BA, and CA... and all the BA variants that can be explained to the players as "BA, but with..." which doesn't give them the same barrier to entry that Gundam and CA have, and even CA is only just starting to mature, gameplay-wise.

And then there's NOTA, which gets the worst of both worlds - people who want a TA like game don't want it, and people who don't want a TA game don't want it.

[smoth]

gundam has a barrier to entry? or are you saying that games are harder to find and that makes it less popular?

[Pxtl]

gundam has a barrier to entry? or are you saying that games are harder to find and that makes it less popular?

All RTS games have a big barrier to entry in that they are hard to learn (compared to learning a new FPS). Assume most players are coming from BA or OTA. Learning a new RTS is _not_ fun, especially a multiplayer one. You go online, wait for a game and die. Quickly. That's a pretty big barrier. CA has the advantage that it _looks_ like it has a lower barrier from BA (it really doesn't), and BA has the advantage that it _looks_ like it has a lower barrier from OTA.

KP is simple. Gundam is utterly opaque unless you've read the (now out-of-date) guide, or are familiar with the Universal Century setting.

[smoth]

the guide on the wiki is out of date, the official guide on the site is up to date.

Thoughts:
- The next guide will see a new re-write, I plan on some trees also.
- I also believe the new economy adds a quicker end to the econ learning curve but initially for *A it is odd because it isn't the ota econ.
- The ability to plop down many buildings at once adds a lot of freedom but it also means the player can more readily fuck his/her self.
- there is a sell system rather than a reclaim for buildings/units

I hope we can give players a good experience, I fully expect to see balance issues and will need to make a few patch releases :\. You just cannot catch it all and the new econ required the destruction of the old balance. However, I understand now, what you mean by barrier, it is alien to ota players and I do not have a lot of units that go to extremes making unit differentiation easier. Have you looked at the uvmapped unit in that eyecandy thread? Do those help?