CA X BA discussion

[Vadi]

Right, you came here to play TA, and that's cool - BA is for you.

[The_Big_Boss]

meh, im for xta.

Right, you came here to play TA, and that's cool - BA is for you.

Im here to play the hardest mod.

[tombom]

Also AA was broken when BA arose, wasn't hard to sell people on what was basically a bugfix of the dominant mod.

You'd be amazed how many people believed the weasel was balanced and Noize, Day, LordMatt etc were all whiners who couldn't handle putting up a few LLTs.

[Licho]

Majority games had weasels disabled at that time. Even first version of springie which came out during transition had weasels disabled by default :)

[Otherside]

meh, im for xta.

Right, you came here to play TA, and that's cool - BA is for you.

Im here to play the hardest mod.

thats debatable and it isnt an xta discussion

[Saktoth]

Right, you came here to play TA, and that's cool - BA is for you.

Try Classic TA. It will blow your mind how different it is from BA. Units shooting through units, ground-firing AA weapons, beamweapons over beamlasers. Its really really different.

That being said, CA is consciously departing from many OTA conventions. But, it is its own game- we cant re-invent the wheel forever.

The first, and biggest problem I found with this is that you can't help it.

Economy engineer exists for a reason, you dont have to morph if you dont wanna.

On the internal nanopower thing- thats actually been discussed and you are right it doesnt follow the OTA convention. Its kinda weird.

I can imagine ways that that could be executed in a good way, but as it is now, I feel like it's just a gimmick, a badly-thought-out placeholder.

Just so? Its a quite deliberate choice actually. Id like to hear how you think it could be 'executed in a good way' as id think that the current way is prettymuch the best way to execute it... other than morphing which, as i said, is optional.

The morphing t2 cons from t1 ones though- now thats a badly thought out placeholder.

The remodel looks too much like a twig, and the legs make it looks like it could spring across the map in no time flat... ...but had more firepower

Mission accomplished- the peewee cant take a beating at all, and its one of the faster kbots. It also has a very high DPS for cost. Im glad to hear the units depiction is so accurate.

[Teutooni]

Imo morphing is the one thing marring CA. It breaks the M-E-BT trinity, which is the backbone of all TA. Upgrading mexes is one thing - some argue its only to make things easier, but the ability to upgrade other t1 units to t2 on the fly makes the game chaotic. I want to know where the enemies buildpower is, so I can try eliminate it or at least know where he can build some new stuff. With this virtual buildpower hidden in every other unit its just confusing. I hate mex morphing too for the same reason.

Call me conservative if you will. I'm not sure if splitting t2 into eco and unit factories is a good idea - at least I'm not instantly dismissing it because it's non-OTA. I can live with morphing too, if it is consistent and supports the overall gameplay (it doesn't right now).

Long live XTA and AA/BA! There's room for CA too, if it ever comes close to being complete.

[BlueTemplar]

Actually, I like combat unit morphing the most, since it rewards the player that takes care of his units instead of just trowing them at the enemy.

I think that in CA you're not supposed to take out the other player's buildpower by bombing factories, they are too easy to rebuild (but you still can attack the chain-exploding nanoturrets). You do it by destroying his economy: take out his energy storages, and he'll be forced to stop his morphings or have a lot of useless units for quite some time. Your eco can't function properly in CA without energy storages, it's too energy consuming...

[Saktoth]

You are meant to target the economy, naturally, and whatever aspect is weakest of it. If he is relying entirely on winds or nanoturrets, saturation bombers or pyros will make quick work of them. If he is relying on mohogeos, they're a ripe target for a prescision strike. Storages are also good to take out, and if you take out his e it will shut down a moho econ very quickly. The economy gets more fragile and interdependent as the game goes on, allowing for more decisive strikes.

Really, you can target whatever part of his economy is most vulnerable, and this isnt always his BP or storage.

Imo morphing is the one thing marring CA.

Det and i agree with this in general, morphing was really toned down a lot due to similar sentiments.

Now its just mexes, cons (which is something we'll be replacing, since its just messy) and unit upgrades by XP.

With Mexes, you need an economy centre. This is a factory which spends most of its time idle- it only builds one thing of which you only ever really need a few. You might as well reclaim it after you get your moho engineer. That is, unless you want to morph. Think of the econ centre as a 1000 metal, long range nanotower that can build mohos, and cant assist. It makes a lot more sense when you take it in that context.

The XP upgrades offer a really interesting dynamic. Perhaps its a bit 'RPG' but being able to mix t1 and t2 (Which is how CA is going for in design, rather than t2 replacing t1) with just a few special units adds something unique to the game. Since it had to be unlocked with XP (which can be very hard) its not rampant, either. You cant seriously rely on xp morphing to run your bp econ.

Call me conservative if you will. I'm not sure if splitting t2 into eco and unit factories is a good idea - at least I'm not instantly dismissing it because it's non-OTA.

We split t2 structures from t2 entirely, as well. Its a part of the flat balancing- that there arent really any tiers, just a range of labs to pick from which can potentially all be on the battlefield at the same time. This opens up a whole new world of options and smooths out the game- its no longer divided into two halves with a tech in the middle.

The econ centre, then, is just a logical necessity- if the game isnt split in half anymore, it doesnt make sense to give the superior economic options out arbitrarily to the 't2' labs. This way, a player can chose to invest specifically in his economy, allowing him to make more choices and persue a broader range of strategies.

Of course, if you dont like the sort of 'Toolbox of strategic options, there for you to explore' but prefer a linear progression up a strictly tiered tech tree, CA probably isnt the game for you. But then, nor is OTA- it only has two tiers. Not so much a tech tree as a tech stump. We just have one less tier than OTA.

[Vadi]

Actually, I like combat unit morphing the most, since it rewards the player that takes care of his units instead of just trowing them at the enemy.

+1. BA games that I observed mostly send troops right there into the front line, while building up more economy, attempting to produce more units than the other guy. Scavenging metal is a must so you can produce more units.

So slowly your production of units overpowers that of the enemy, you might've build an experimental unit, and you won.

Strategy? More like cannon fodder

[Day]

you remind me of noob

[Otherside]

wc3 for example has tiers of units but there not really regarded as tiers cos u need to mix units to win

Night elves for example

Archer/huntress tier 1
dryad/talon/bear(without bear form)/faerie dragon/hipogryphs tier 2
bears/chims/mountain giants tier 3

tier 3 is very powerful and worth teching to but cant win games alone ud need support of tier 2 and possibly tier 1 units (all strat depending)

for example i like mountain giants and archer combo in team games which is tier 3 and tier 1

i like having a sort of tier dynamic of multiple factories with different options which u can combine with other factories were u can consider one factory more advanced but it would need the support of another factory to be of good use. Ofc this is harder in CA and *A mods cos theres like 10 times more units and tons of other stuff that wc3 dusnt have but hopefully it will turn out that way

i dont really like the exp morphing in the context of the mod cos it feels very RPG in a mod full of robots it dusnt make sense (dont rilly like hp gain from exp either) but i can live with it cos i like other areas of the mod

and morphing is resource intensive so even if sum1 is morphing stuff eco is a good target to go for the "invisible BP" isnt much and far from game breaking sum1 wont beat u by morphing xD infact most people die from badly timed morphing

and vadi ur statement about BA basically says TECH TO KROG :p

[KDR_11k]

The XP morphing seems like a good thing to me, in some water matches I specced the players (Sak and det IIRC) often tried to get ships up to an XP level at which they could be morphed into T2 ships which made high exp units very valuable and meant there were occassional T2 units in play without either player paying the huge cost for teching up.

[The_Big_Boss]

thats debatable and it isnt an xta discussion

to me this conversation is like arguing over who's king of the hill...in hell.

Nor released a BA 6.666. I saw two things. The mod had strat. Ba players didnt find it or it took them a long time. Its like watching monkeys discover how to prod sticks into an ant pile while getting stung multiple times. The mod had gimmicks, but ba players werent amused. Many of them said it wasn't like 'ta'.

I think most BA players think BA is mostly like TA, and that any ta based mod not like TA itself, phails. I dont see that on the forum, i see that by in game comments. Forum BA players must be smarter then....

But if thats true, xta and ca are automatically out, since they arent like BA or like TA. Or at least... 'not enough' like ta.


Speed too, was a huge factor in one particular game i watched. They wanted instant conflict, not have to wait for their units to walk across the map. Well...geeze, xta is out. I didnt realize to have a good game there had to be instant action. Is ca slower than ba?

I dont deny ba has strat, I dont want to go there, but i think they just want to improve a game they already play, without having to have to learn new tricks.


(Oh yeah, warcraft 3 pissed off allot of warcraft strat vets when it first came out. They hated heroes.)

[det]

CA gameplay is even faster than BA.

The linear progression goes something like this:

XTA, Paint Drying, TiA/SA, BA, CA

[Machiosabre]

aw man why does xta always get slaughtered by everyone?

also "Im here to play the hardest mod." was the best joke in this thread, the hardest multiplayer game mod? what?

[BlueTemplar]

More like
NOTA, End of the Universe, XTA, Paint Drying, TiA/SA, BA, CA

Seriously, if the last game on coast to coast hadn't crashed we would still be playing it!

(Was pretty amazing though... And maybe our Krogoth army would have managed to cross the sea, who knows? )

[Teutooni]

You do it by destroying his economy

Yes, economy in general is to be targetted, obviously. It's just that buildpower is the only truly local aspect of economy. Therefore it can be attacked locally, incapacitating enemy in that area.

I must say though, that morphing cannot be used to make more units, which leaves traditional buildpower a dominating position, and only minorly delocalizes it.

Thinking of the eco center as a nanoturret with a colossal range, only able to build mohomexes, made as much sense as a very small area nanoturret that only builds llt's for free. In other words, it doesn't.

I'm not saying morphing is imbalanced, it's just inconsistent.

Oh and the need for storages is really nicely done in CA compared to BA, I just need to get used to them. I guess same goes for breaking down the t2 (or whatever It's called now that it isn't actually a tier anymore).

[det]

I agree with your dislike of mex morphing. It isn't consistent.

It provides you with varying build power (morph many mines at once).

It destroys the logistics part of the equation (You no longer have to get a builder over to a mex to upgrade it).

It also changes the risk factors. You no longer risk losing your constructor and having to repay the logistics price. Instead the risk is that you can't cancel it and get resources back. Also, you can't "wait" it, so it is something you must commit to.

That being said, I don't find it to be a big deal, because moho mex are rarely worth it in CA. My biggest gripe is that it is "cool" and lures players into using it, even when it is a terrible idea. Unit morphing, I think is actually a fun gimmick that makes the game more dynamic. It is also fairly rare since it requires a lot of experience.

[det]

Speed too, was a huge factor in one particular game i watched. They wanted instant conflict, not have to wait for their units to walk across the map. Well...geeze, xta is out. I didnt realize to have a good game there had to be instant action. Is ca slower than ba?

This is an important issue.

In most RTS, "conflict" is just another word for "player interaction". If you arent interacting with your opponent then you are just playing simbase against yourself. It's more like a race than a strategy game. It's about memorizing efficient build orders and carrying them out as fast as you can. Where the strategy aspects of the games comes in is in player interactions. You see what your opponent has, where it is and you devise ways to exploit his weaknesses while minimizing your weaknesses.

Another issue is time lag. The longer it takes for your units to engage the enemy, the more of an advantage a defender has. It essentially means you are fighting your enemy from X seconds in the future. One the one hand, the time lag is useful because it allows for expansion while still being able to defend. On the other hand, it must be carefully balanced so that it is still worthwhile to attack.

BA succeeds in having lots of player interaction and balancing time lag.

SA takes BA and lessens the player interaction and unbalances the time lag while trying to increase the unit diversity (Which I beleive it fails at, but that is another topic).

XTA is much slower than BA, but doesn't suffer from time lag problems because units live for such a long time. They may take a long time to reach the enemy but they are able to inflict a lot of damage to the economy before they are killed. However, it does suffer from slow player interaction and therefore less adaption.

CA takes BA and increases the player interaction while preserving the time lag balance. It also succeeds in increasing the unit diversity so that intel is even more important.