Scope of the GPL for mods
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
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- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
I dunno; I really don't want to see my art running around in any mod other then my own, unless my permission is specifically granted. I should hope that there is some means for me to prevent this from occuring, otherwise for all I know, my stuff will be ripped the moment I release, and appear in mods that I have no affiliation with, have no like for, and the person doing it can be exonerated in the eyes of the community should he simply include my name in some textfile hidden in the bowls of the mod?
Bowels, not bowls...
Now then, I do indeed wholeheartedly agree. I have become a LOT better, as a modeler and texturer. This is about my third time redoing certain units.
I really would prefer anyone not touching my mod. The only reason I want anyone peeking through my files is to learn from how I did certain stuff, and tbh, I really don't think anyone would need to do that, I haven't done anything that seems worth learning from, so far.
Though, it is still a long way off. No point in worrying now...
Now then, I do indeed wholeheartedly agree. I have become a LOT better, as a modeler and texturer. This is about my third time redoing certain units.
I really would prefer anyone not touching my mod. The only reason I want anyone peeking through my files is to learn from how I did certain stuff, and tbh, I really don't think anyone would need to do that, I haven't done anything that seems worth learning from, so far.
Though, it is still a long way off. No point in worrying now...
Oh, I'm moderating. Decimator has started an initiative seeking more power for forum moderators, and we're trying to rouse our colleagues.Forboding Angel wrote:Fang speaks the truth.
And neddie, I appreciate the whole mod power thing there, but are you actually gonna moderate, or are you gonna throw the forums under the bus like swift does (as in talk big, and do nothing)?
Zsinj, correct me if Im wrong, but the bulk of the work you have done to completion has been for the SWTA mod..? If so I seriously doubt anyone is going to take that, unless they are making their own SW mod (highly unlikely in such a small community).. otherwise said content without complete redoing almost to the point of scratch would look so out of place.. SW is too recognizable to really be used alot..
My general point though is there is a lot to be saying that people are going to rip us off... I mean Im not trying to dis anyones work, but are we really that good, I mean seriously is our stuff so awesome that someone, and in fact everyone is trying to steal it 24/7 or even just on the weekdays.. I know my shit isnt.. hell If people started stealing my models/scripts/whatever Id probably be more flattered than anything else.. that is after I got over the intial nerdrage...
Im not all for people stealing stuff, but I dont understand where the precident is? There has been VERY little stealing in this community, or even from outside this community on any scale worth noting.. and anytime it does happen the shitstorm is SO huge that it takes over the forum.. I mean the only incident I can remember, were My debacle with Argh (though I dont think this really ought to count as it was more of a misunderstanding), Tired yoinking one unit from Talon... and ah, crap I cant remember anymore.. So basically why are we all so paranoid about this that we need 56 iron clad licences to protect us from theives, when as far as I can see there are no theives..
My general point though is there is a lot to be saying that people are going to rip us off... I mean Im not trying to dis anyones work, but are we really that good, I mean seriously is our stuff so awesome that someone, and in fact everyone is trying to steal it 24/7 or even just on the weekdays.. I know my shit isnt.. hell If people started stealing my models/scripts/whatever Id probably be more flattered than anything else.. that is after I got over the intial nerdrage...
Im not all for people stealing stuff, but I dont understand where the precident is? There has been VERY little stealing in this community, or even from outside this community on any scale worth noting.. and anytime it does happen the shitstorm is SO huge that it takes over the forum.. I mean the only incident I can remember, were My debacle with Argh (though I dont think this really ought to count as it was more of a misunderstanding), Tired yoinking one unit from Talon... and ah, crap I cant remember anymore.. So basically why are we all so paranoid about this that we need 56 iron clad licences to protect us from theives, when as far as I can see there are no theives..
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SpikedHelmet
- MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Well, yeah, I realise that my stuff is mostly star wars based; but it was more of a general query.
I have been asked by someone if they could submit one of my units for a joke mod, but atleast that person asked (and listened to my, 'thanks, but no thanks'), so I'm not too worried about it.
Similarly, someone could decide they want to put together a 'clone wars' mod , or an 'original trilogy mod' (our mod covers all 6 movies and expanded universe), and I wouldn't want them to simply be able to take my stuff and run with it. Not that I would likely say no to such an endeavour, but I want the option to remain in my hands, not be out of my power once I release.
The biggest concern, perhaps, is that once I release, if my stuff is just free for anyone to do with what they like, there's nothing stopping any joe coming along and thinking 'hay, I could do a better job then these guys, I'm going to take all their models, maybe throw in one or two of my own, and rebalance!'. I don't want to see BSWS, CASWS, etc. Which is unlikely, I know - but it's still a concern, and I'm sure is a concern for anyone making a mod with more generic sci-fi based units, rather then specific universe mods like myself and say, Gundam. Also, while much of our stuff is star wars based, we are also making up a lot of general sci-fi stuff which is generic in use, and not immediately recogniseable as Star Wars.
For me, there's a big difference in giving someone my stuff when they intend to work it into their own artistic process, and really bring something new to the table. But I've seen plenty of noobs who really don't understand or respect the design process at all, and think that they are ingenious game designers because they can edit unit stats in notepad files (do not take that as a specific attack on *A OTA mods). I want to keep my own judgement in the process, rather then simply throw my work to the baying dogs and hope people are responsible with it.
The incident with Tired stealing a talon thing really stuck out in my mind. though I don't want to drag it up again. TRO's rejection of his usage on artistic grounds strikes me just as much. Sure, I think stormtroopers fighting against TA units is a pretty stupid idea, but someone else might think it's a brilliant idea, and manage to cut out the entire artistic, animation and scripting workload by taking my work and sticking it into TA.
The fact that there is some skill required to produce content is a 'culling ground' for people who really have no idea, and just want to put crap out. I don't want those people taking my stuff willy nilly, which is why I'd like to retain the ability to make decisions in that regard.
I have been asked by someone if they could submit one of my units for a joke mod, but atleast that person asked (and listened to my, 'thanks, but no thanks'), so I'm not too worried about it.
Similarly, someone could decide they want to put together a 'clone wars' mod , or an 'original trilogy mod' (our mod covers all 6 movies and expanded universe), and I wouldn't want them to simply be able to take my stuff and run with it. Not that I would likely say no to such an endeavour, but I want the option to remain in my hands, not be out of my power once I release.
The biggest concern, perhaps, is that once I release, if my stuff is just free for anyone to do with what they like, there's nothing stopping any joe coming along and thinking 'hay, I could do a better job then these guys, I'm going to take all their models, maybe throw in one or two of my own, and rebalance!'. I don't want to see BSWS, CASWS, etc. Which is unlikely, I know - but it's still a concern, and I'm sure is a concern for anyone making a mod with more generic sci-fi based units, rather then specific universe mods like myself and say, Gundam. Also, while much of our stuff is star wars based, we are also making up a lot of general sci-fi stuff which is generic in use, and not immediately recogniseable as Star Wars.
For me, there's a big difference in giving someone my stuff when they intend to work it into their own artistic process, and really bring something new to the table. But I've seen plenty of noobs who really don't understand or respect the design process at all, and think that they are ingenious game designers because they can edit unit stats in notepad files (do not take that as a specific attack on *A OTA mods). I want to keep my own judgement in the process, rather then simply throw my work to the baying dogs and hope people are responsible with it.
The incident with Tired stealing a talon thing really stuck out in my mind. though I don't want to drag it up again. TRO's rejection of his usage on artistic grounds strikes me just as much. Sure, I think stormtroopers fighting against TA units is a pretty stupid idea, but someone else might think it's a brilliant idea, and manage to cut out the entire artistic, animation and scripting workload by taking my work and sticking it into TA.
The fact that there is some skill required to produce content is a 'culling ground' for people who really have no idea, and just want to put crap out. I don't want those people taking my stuff willy nilly, which is why I'd like to retain the ability to make decisions in that regard.
What is really so bad about someone making say Balanced SWS? Sure, it might hurt your pride a bit if someone takes ur stuff and makes a more played mod then the original. The balance-modder would stand on top of your shoulders and get a lot of recognition that way, which may seem a bit unfair, even if very proper credit is given. However does that matter so much in the bigger picture of things... Remember that "stealing" using and building on other peoples ideas and work is really essential to all our progress. Not just in Spring mind u, we would be stuck in the stoneage if there was no building ontop of others work.
What if the SY:s went: "what if someone uses our engine to make a mod that's more popular then XTA?? we cant have that lets go closed source and disallow modding"
In the end the community is one mod richer, your work might see more play and at least some people will know where all those great models and stuff came from.
Personally I think maybe it WOULD be best if springs GPL carried over on mods, period. You wanna use the SY work to make some cool game? Fine but other may use your work then as well. Seems good to me.
What if the SY:s went: "what if someone uses our engine to make a mod that's more popular then XTA?? we cant have that lets go closed source and disallow modding"
In the end the community is one mod richer, your work might see more play and at least some people will know where all those great models and stuff came from.
Personally I think maybe it WOULD be best if springs GPL carried over on mods, period. You wanna use the SY work to make some cool game? Fine but other may use your work then as well. Seems good to me.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
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- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Well, we're moving deeper into a hypothetical here, which is moving further away from reality, but, hypothetically ( 
), because SWS is a product that I have made, and I don't want competing ones that are marginally different dividing what little community I might be able to attract? It's hard enough for a mod like mine to break through the *A clones, let alone survive with a competing version.
Basically, what bothers me is that I've put in a lot of work in both the art and design, and I want people to enjoy the product I've crafted. To my mind, the two are inseperable as elements of my work. Infact, I'd much rather consider myself a game designer then a game artist - largely because in the scale of real world game artists, I'm pretty average, and it really isn't my passion.
I've specifically wanted to create a game that had my own content so that I could do whatever I wanted with it; which is why I didn't create another *A. Therefore, I would want to shield my content against people who want to take the large amount of work I've done, and then alter a small amount and have their own mod without putting in the hard yards. Learn from what I've done and create their own stuff, sure, that's terrific. Ask me for help, even better. But just wholesale taking my work, making minor changes, and rereleasing - meh.
Again, most of this is on a purely hypothetical basis, and I'd consider each case that came to me on it's merits. It could be that someone is totally changing the way the game is approached and I want to see that. But I still want it to run through me to get the ok first.
Further, given that SWS in reality isn't actually 'mine' but 'my team's', anyone who wants to play with SWS balance should apply for a position with us, rather then create a (hypothetical ) counter SWS.
), because SWS is a product that I have made, and I don't want competing ones that are marginally different dividing what little community I might be able to attract? It's hard enough for a mod like mine to break through the *A clones, let alone survive with a competing version.Basically, what bothers me is that I've put in a lot of work in both the art and design, and I want people to enjoy the product I've crafted. To my mind, the two are inseperable as elements of my work. Infact, I'd much rather consider myself a game designer then a game artist - largely because in the scale of real world game artists, I'm pretty average, and it really isn't my passion.
I've specifically wanted to create a game that had my own content so that I could do whatever I wanted with it; which is why I didn't create another *A. Therefore, I would want to shield my content against people who want to take the large amount of work I've done, and then alter a small amount and have their own mod without putting in the hard yards. Learn from what I've done and create their own stuff, sure, that's terrific. Ask me for help, even better. But just wholesale taking my work, making minor changes, and rereleasing - meh.
Again, most of this is on a purely hypothetical basis, and I'd consider each case that came to me on it's merits. It could be that someone is totally changing the way the game is approached and I want to see that. But I still want it to run through me to get the ok first.
Further, given that SWS in reality isn't actually 'mine' but 'my team's', anyone who wants to play with SWS balance should apply for a position with us, rather then create a (hypothetical
) counter SWS.-
Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
As a case study, it appears that this has been licensed under GPL.
Would I be able to use this widget in my mod, without infecting everything else within my mod as GPL?
Would I be able to use this widget in my mod, without infecting everything else within my mod as GPL?
My general query to you Zsinj, is not whether you want to protect your work, but how you will do so.. Even with GPL, if someone takes your work without asking, the ONLY way you can stop them is to get involved in a legal battle. While this might solve the problem its going to cost money and time, and I question whether when push comes to shove your work is really worth that much to you.
Essentially let me put it this way, Hollywood, even for all its money and power, is still not capable of preventing people from pirating movies and putting them on the internet for download. Sure its frowned upon, most people here wont do it, and its not allowed to be discussed in many forums, but it still happens. So if people can do that without being stopped, how in the hell are we going to stop someone with our even more limited resources and interest. Im not saying we shouldnt care, or that we just give up and let people do it. But I am saying that adding all sorts of red tape and hassle to try and prevent theft, that we really cant prevent is just creating issues for the people who want to be fair and open. Essentially this massive GPL craze cuts off our nose to spite our face, were not lessening the chances of theft, just lessening the interest legitimate people have in sharing. That can only hurt the community in the long run. We need to work together not against eachother. This is for fun and entertainment, not profit, no one is competeing so lets work together. We dont need a complicated licence to do that..
Essentially let me put it this way, Hollywood, even for all its money and power, is still not capable of preventing people from pirating movies and putting them on the internet for download. Sure its frowned upon, most people here wont do it, and its not allowed to be discussed in many forums, but it still happens. So if people can do that without being stopped, how in the hell are we going to stop someone with our even more limited resources and interest. Im not saying we shouldnt care, or that we just give up and let people do it. But I am saying that adding all sorts of red tape and hassle to try and prevent theft, that we really cant prevent is just creating issues for the people who want to be fair and open. Essentially this massive GPL craze cuts off our nose to spite our face, were not lessening the chances of theft, just lessening the interest legitimate people have in sharing. That can only hurt the community in the long run. We need to work together not against eachother. This is for fun and entertainment, not profit, no one is competeing so lets work together. We dont need a complicated licence to do that..
No, the GPL / CC / CC-SA spectrum divides up what is outright piracy, what is being given away, no strings attached, and what is being shared legally, but with possible consequences, should any game made using Spring ever be sold commercially.
Which, dumb as it sounds, is always possible. Maybe not probable at this time, but certainly possible.
Moreover, you keep saying stuff about how piracy's inevitable, but if I decided I could rebal E&E and jazz it up, I'd get screamed at, and you could sue me. If you'd kept my GPL'd code, E&E would be GPL now, and it'd be cool for anybody to use any parts of it for anything, so long as they adhered to the GPL. It wouldn't be stealing. People might still scream, but it wouldn't be illegal.
When you put E&E under CC or declare it Public Domain, or put it out under GPL, I will start taking viewpoints like yours a lot more seriously.
It takes a lot of chutzpah to tell us that we're all being paranoid about our legal status, and that we're making a big deal out of nothing, when you're sitting on one of the few large games for Spring that is entirely (C).
Smoth is very explicit about what he's giving away. I'm very explicit about what I'm giving away, Lathan's been explicit, and while it took direct questions to make it 100% clear, so is KDR. Even Forb, who seems to not understand what all this is about at all, other than his anger over my actions in regards to your specific case, has repeatedly said, "take anything I do and do whatever" over and over again, which is probably legitimate proof of his intent to put all of his work in the Public Domain, even though I suspect that, again, if I yanked one of his heightmaps and reworked the textures, I'd never hear the end of it.
In short, most of the "just do whatever, people are stupid, stealing's normal" people are, not-very-ironically, the very people who are either sitting on a lot of stuff that's still entirely (C) and cannot be used by people like me, who would like to be legally-correct if possible, or are *A guys, who are working on stuff that is very, very questionable legally- the unresolved issue of whether Atari has "abandoned" their copyrights has never been tested legally, so the legal presumption is on their side.
As for Zpock's standpoint, where everything everybody made for Spring would be GPL'd:
I'd actually 100% support that POV, except for then we'd run into a serious legal issue with all of the Spring games where making them GPL is either impossible, due to the fact that they're using somebody else's IP (you cannot GPL stuff you do not control the copyrights to), or improbable (so many people worked on it, for so long, that getting permissions is probably not really possible- SWS fits into both categories).
I'd fully support a 100% GPL world for Spring, but then we'd all be put into the position of saying to hardworking game designers, who are using somebody else's art / designs / fictional world that, in effect, they were doubly illegal- they'd be in violation of Spring's License, and hence could not sell their game, even if the owners of the original IP granted them that right, since the owners of the IP aren't terribly likely to want to have said IP GPL'd (again, that nasty copyleft stuff)... and they're also illegal because they're in direct violation of copyright, for distributing likenesses of another party's work.
I'd be 100% in favor of killing all non-original IP projects, if I were dictator, except for the fact that I know most of the people making these things, and they are doing their best to honor the IP they're borrowing from, and I know that if I were George Lucas or Bandai or whatever, I would have a hard time seeing how their games are destructive of their brands or image. It's just a big, nasty mess that way. Logically, I'd favor banning everything that's legally-dodgy from this place. Emotionally, I can't support that position.
Which, dumb as it sounds, is always possible. Maybe not probable at this time, but certainly possible.
Moreover, you keep saying stuff about how piracy's inevitable, but if I decided I could rebal E&E and jazz it up, I'd get screamed at, and you could sue me. If you'd kept my GPL'd code, E&E would be GPL now, and it'd be cool for anybody to use any parts of it for anything, so long as they adhered to the GPL. It wouldn't be stealing. People might still scream, but it wouldn't be illegal.
When you put E&E under CC or declare it Public Domain, or put it out under GPL, I will start taking viewpoints like yours a lot more seriously.
It takes a lot of chutzpah to tell us that we're all being paranoid about our legal status, and that we're making a big deal out of nothing, when you're sitting on one of the few large games for Spring that is entirely (C).
Smoth is very explicit about what he's giving away. I'm very explicit about what I'm giving away, Lathan's been explicit, and while it took direct questions to make it 100% clear, so is KDR. Even Forb, who seems to not understand what all this is about at all, other than his anger over my actions in regards to your specific case, has repeatedly said, "take anything I do and do whatever" over and over again, which is probably legitimate proof of his intent to put all of his work in the Public Domain, even though I suspect that, again, if I yanked one of his heightmaps and reworked the textures, I'd never hear the end of it.
In short, most of the "just do whatever, people are stupid, stealing's normal" people are, not-very-ironically, the very people who are either sitting on a lot of stuff that's still entirely (C) and cannot be used by people like me, who would like to be legally-correct if possible, or are *A guys, who are working on stuff that is very, very questionable legally- the unresolved issue of whether Atari has "abandoned" their copyrights has never been tested legally, so the legal presumption is on their side.
As for Zpock's standpoint, where everything everybody made for Spring would be GPL'd:
I'd actually 100% support that POV, except for then we'd run into a serious legal issue with all of the Spring games where making them GPL is either impossible, due to the fact that they're using somebody else's IP (you cannot GPL stuff you do not control the copyrights to), or improbable (so many people worked on it, for so long, that getting permissions is probably not really possible- SWS fits into both categories).
I'd fully support a 100% GPL world for Spring, but then we'd all be put into the position of saying to hardworking game designers, who are using somebody else's art / designs / fictional world that, in effect, they were doubly illegal- they'd be in violation of Spring's License, and hence could not sell their game, even if the owners of the original IP granted them that right, since the owners of the IP aren't terribly likely to want to have said IP GPL'd (again, that nasty copyleft stuff)... and they're also illegal because they're in direct violation of copyright, for distributing likenesses of another party's work.
I'd be 100% in favor of killing all non-original IP projects, if I were dictator, except for the fact that I know most of the people making these things, and they are doing their best to honor the IP they're borrowing from, and I know that if I were George Lucas or Bandai or whatever, I would have a hard time seeing how their games are destructive of their brands or image. It's just a big, nasty mess that way. Logically, I'd favor banning everything that's legally-dodgy from this place. Emotionally, I can't support that position.
I am tired of having to say this.....
gundam RTS is my fanart project.
If you knew anything about japan and thier stance on ip... and how many depraved and odd ball hentai comics written and sold based on said ip... those sick freaks.. and god bless them... then you would know that a free project is not even on their radar.
(BTW: this is not a flame but a preventative statement since gundam was mentioned.)
gundam RTS is my fanart project.
If you knew anything about japan and thier stance on ip... and how many depraved and odd ball hentai comics written and sold based on said ip... those sick freaks.. and god bless them... then you would know that a free project is not even on their radar.
(BTW: this is not a flame but a preventative statement since gundam was mentioned.)
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Fanger, I don't really think that a license agreement is going to stop anyone who really wants to take my stuff, but I do think it quite clearly reveals my intentions, and will stop anyone who might have presumed that my work is free to take, or will stand up behind my 'please stop using my stuff' PM when I can clearly point to the fact that the license states that I retain IP over my work, or whatever.
Also, it is more of a community recognition thing. Part of the bit that really bothered me about the whole Tired stealing work fiasco was that members of the community really thought 'who cares?', or even supported Tired's actions. That sort of attitude really will make the whole license stuff useless, because if people are going to steal things and have the community not care, then it will continue to happen; which ultimately discourages me from working if I fall (or risk falling) into similar situations.
If the community recognises that disregarding licenses is detestable, and ostracises those that do it, and takes steps in order to prevent it happening (banning non-compliant mods from UF, FU, lobby, forums, etc), then while you are correct that a note on my mod isn't going to physically stop anyone, and I'm not actually going to get lawyers involved, it certainly communicates quite clearly what my intentions are regarding my mod, and how I want people to use it; as a community, I think it is important that everyone respects my right to do so.
If this is the case, then I wouldn't really be worried about a few bad eggs, because I could rely on the Spring community as a whole to quash anything that doesn't comply with my licensing requirements.
Also, it is more of a community recognition thing. Part of the bit that really bothered me about the whole Tired stealing work fiasco was that members of the community really thought 'who cares?', or even supported Tired's actions. That sort of attitude really will make the whole license stuff useless, because if people are going to steal things and have the community not care, then it will continue to happen; which ultimately discourages me from working if I fall (or risk falling) into similar situations.
If the community recognises that disregarding licenses is detestable, and ostracises those that do it, and takes steps in order to prevent it happening (banning non-compliant mods from UF, FU, lobby, forums, etc), then while you are correct that a note on my mod isn't going to physically stop anyone, and I'm not actually going to get lawyers involved, it certainly communicates quite clearly what my intentions are regarding my mod, and how I want people to use it; as a community, I think it is important that everyone respects my right to do so.
If this is the case, then I wouldn't really be worried about a few bad eggs, because I could rely on the Spring community as a whole to quash anything that doesn't comply with my licensing requirements.
LordSpawn once asked Fang for EE models. Fang said no because Spawn was insulting EE just a moment before that. If EE was GPL Fang wouldn't be allowed to say no and noone would have to ask him, someone would make SimBase&Exterminate (i.e. add metal makers) and advertise it enough to "replace" E&E in everyone's mind.
While we can't enforce a no with any totally effective means there's still enough people who would respect it. If you make your work GPL you cannot say no, no matter what happens.
Quantum: Yep, that'd clarify the situation immensely.
While we can't enforce a no with any totally effective means there's still enough people who would respect it. If you make your work GPL you cannot say no, no matter what happens.
Quantum: Yep, that'd clarify the situation immensely.