I don't like this. At all. If anything artillery should be increased, though that may mess up the balence a bit.Fanger wrote:
-Slight range decrease to lvl 1 arty for both URC and GD
Leave em be, you need to focus on NI!
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Forboding Angel
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First off, guys if ur i anyway comparing how far real artillery shoots and how it is in this (or any) mod its kinda pointless. If Fang used real ranges we would need 32x32 maps in order for a game to be remotely fun or long.
As to the range nerf maybe we should, instead, carry over the Epic notion and not have arty be able to move and shoot at lvl 1. Right now arty out ranges defenses and that makes sense. The problem is two-fold:
1. they can basically fire off a round or two and then flee any attackers (cept air) or arty turret shots
2. Your own arty units have to be next to the defenses in order to fire back (assuming its GD vs. GD or URC vs URC) meaning that if u only have a few they ll get killed by aoe of the attackers.
However what are teh ranges on arty turrets? i know they are longer than the mobiles but by how much? Putting those behind ur defenses will allow u to at least harass them but since the shell falls so slow the attacking arty can flee. Really the best solution is to attack, esp if u have both air and ground units.
Personally i don't feel this is a problem as it forces u to be more aggressive and not turret wall urself but since it seems to be a hot topic thats my two cents.
As to the range nerf maybe we should, instead, carry over the Epic notion and not have arty be able to move and shoot at lvl 1. Right now arty out ranges defenses and that makes sense. The problem is two-fold:
1. they can basically fire off a round or two and then flee any attackers (cept air) or arty turret shots
2. Your own arty units have to be next to the defenses in order to fire back (assuming its GD vs. GD or URC vs URC) meaning that if u only have a few they ll get killed by aoe of the attackers.
However what are teh ranges on arty turrets? i know they are longer than the mobiles but by how much? Putting those behind ur defenses will allow u to at least harass them but since the shell falls so slow the attacking arty can flee. Really the best solution is to attack, esp if u have both air and ground units.
Personally i don't feel this is a problem as it forces u to be more aggressive and not turret wall urself but since it seems to be a hot topic thats my two cents.
Look I called the lvl 1 stuff arty because well people generally get confused about actual military terms hence why I have 12 dozen people in every game ask me what the ECM bot is supposed to do.. anyone who knew about military aircraft knows ECM stands for Electronic Countermeasures.. or Jamming.. point in case... Artillery comes in several varieties.. and all have their purpose:
lvl 1 Artillery is more of a Mortar type weapon it is relatively short ranged and has a very High arc.. the purpose behind this seeminly random weapon set up is that lvl 1 artillery is supposed to be used en mass to break up enemy troop concentrations as you attack or as they attack, yes it is relatively inneffective against a single target or small spread out group, its main purpose is to break up clumps of enemy units either in a offensive or defensive manner (lvl 3 units are never in clumps so dont complain that it does crap dmg to them) lvl 1 can also be used to take out small groups of light turrets effectively or to counter lvl 1 artillery turrets to avoid heavy casualties from a frontal assault, So using it in that capacity is trading time for units..
lvl 2 Artillery is your base breaking artillery and as with lvl 1 functions best if you have more than 1, probably more than 2 or 3. This artillery is meant to roll up into place and bombard a dug in enemy position into the ground (no it doesnt do this in 2 shots) it will take some time to break through but it has the range to sit there and fire with impunity and pretty much anything. This artillery is much less effective against a single or moving target..
lvl 3 Artillery is a middle ground in can be used to follow both a lvl 1 or lvl 2 artillery role, but does not exactly excell at either, it is shorter ranged than lvl 2 but longer than lvl 1, does less dmg than lvl 2 but has the fast firing rate of several lvl 1, this means that yes it can bombard an entrenched position but a lvl 3 will loose to several lvl 2s if they find it or are trading shots.. and it can bombard troop concentrations to break them up but a clump of lvl 1 might be able to do this better.. the extra you pay is the less units spread out on the battlefield, the extra survivability and the utility usage of this unit..
lvl 1 Artillery is more of a Mortar type weapon it is relatively short ranged and has a very High arc.. the purpose behind this seeminly random weapon set up is that lvl 1 artillery is supposed to be used en mass to break up enemy troop concentrations as you attack or as they attack, yes it is relatively inneffective against a single target or small spread out group, its main purpose is to break up clumps of enemy units either in a offensive or defensive manner (lvl 3 units are never in clumps so dont complain that it does crap dmg to them) lvl 1 can also be used to take out small groups of light turrets effectively or to counter lvl 1 artillery turrets to avoid heavy casualties from a frontal assault, So using it in that capacity is trading time for units..
lvl 2 Artillery is your base breaking artillery and as with lvl 1 functions best if you have more than 1, probably more than 2 or 3. This artillery is meant to roll up into place and bombard a dug in enemy position into the ground (no it doesnt do this in 2 shots) it will take some time to break through but it has the range to sit there and fire with impunity and pretty much anything. This artillery is much less effective against a single or moving target..
lvl 3 Artillery is a middle ground in can be used to follow both a lvl 1 or lvl 2 artillery role, but does not exactly excell at either, it is shorter ranged than lvl 2 but longer than lvl 1, does less dmg than lvl 2 but has the fast firing rate of several lvl 1, this means that yes it can bombard an entrenched position but a lvl 3 will loose to several lvl 2s if they find it or are trading shots.. and it can bombard troop concentrations to break them up but a clump of lvl 1 might be able to do this better.. the extra you pay is the less units spread out on the battlefield, the extra survivability and the utility usage of this unit..
I have an idea for the cannon weapon. I think cannon is at the moment a bit of a weak and uninteresting middle ground between rockets and plamsa/laser. So to differentiate it and give it a role I suggest:
High Damage - much more then both plasma/laser and rockets.
Low acuracy - what balances out the high damage
Low range - this is optional but I think it fits, esp to keep it different to artillery and rockets.
Area of effect - maybe, not really necessary for desired effect.
The plan here is to make the cannon into an effective short range weapons against tightly packed units, and really big units. In a one on one fight or loosely packed units on open terrain plasma/laser should be far superior. Rockets still have lots of roles to fill besides aoe, such as decent AA, very reliable since rockets almost never miss. An army with cannon units would function a bit like a shotgun.
Ohh I liked that analogy, to build on it Plasmas/lasers are the automatic rifle, and rockets the grenades.
High Damage - much more then both plasma/laser and rockets.
Low acuracy - what balances out the high damage
Low range - this is optional but I think it fits, esp to keep it different to artillery and rockets.
Area of effect - maybe, not really necessary for desired effect.
The plan here is to make the cannon into an effective short range weapons against tightly packed units, and really big units. In a one on one fight or loosely packed units on open terrain plasma/laser should be far superior. Rockets still have lots of roles to fill besides aoe, such as decent AA, very reliable since rockets almost never miss. An army with cannon units would function a bit like a shotgun.
Ohh I liked that analogy, to build on it Plasmas/lasers are the automatic rifle, and rockets the grenades.
Well, there's no reason to unnecessarily tie youself to the Earth games. Heck, imho it's better to cut yourself off from them for legal reasons. Earth-style gameplay does not demand Earth's unit-lists.j5mello wrote:af the reason the URC have cannon mechs is the reason taht things are kinda the way they are, is that what the Earth games had in em.
to Zpock for which side? URC's cannons are (minus the aoe and accuracy)
true but the thing is its not like its a bad thing, besides the fortress has a cannon and their is a lvl 3 cannon mech as well. so its not like there is only one instance of this weapon.
Also from my point of view, the cannon are a replacement for the flamer throwers on general combat units. giving the flamerthrowers increasingly longer range looks odd but with the lasers it does not. So if we were to remove the cannons the URC would lack a "short range" high power weapon system similar to the lasers of GD. Hence this is kind of a balance thing as well as homage to the earth series.
Also from my point of view, the cannon are a replacement for the flamer throwers on general combat units. giving the flamerthrowers increasingly longer range looks odd but with the lasers it does not. So if we were to remove the cannons the URC would lack a "short range" high power weapon system similar to the lasers of GD. Hence this is kind of a balance thing as well as homage to the earth series.
wait now we are argueing about cannon mechs? :/
what happened to artillery bitching?
#1 lvl 1 arty's , they are mortars, mortars are shorter range and made for taking down defenses.
you want long range artillery, go to lvl 2.
lvl 2 artillery is pretty damn effective btw. especially the gd counterpart.
what happened to artillery bitching?
#1 lvl 1 arty's , they are mortars, mortars are shorter range and made for taking down defenses.
you want long range artillery, go to lvl 2.
lvl 2 artillery is pretty damn effective btw. especially the gd counterpart.
Zpock.. I am considering your Idea.. for the most part that was the point of the cannon mechs.. once I realized that in their initial form they didnt really serve a useful purpose.. I redesigned the weapon to be a short range high power weapon.. the inaccuracy is an interesting idea.. I will definately consider that.. atm I think the actual unit needs a hit point increase and possibly a rate of fire/dmg boost.. the rate of fire could dramatically be increased with inaccuracy since it would likely not hit the target it fired at.. making it more effective at clumps of units.. although this could alter the balance..
Secondly I would just like to announce to all the people that dont seem to know or are confused or whatever... That the only one working on this mod Is Me.. lots of other people have contributed ideas, or basis for models, or balance suggestions, but ultimately I am the only one who implements this stuff in any fashion.. I appreciate all the other people who help but I am the sole "developer" of EE.. I hope this alleviates all confusion..
Secondly I would just like to announce to all the people that dont seem to know or are confused or whatever... That the only one working on this mod Is Me.. lots of other people have contributed ideas, or basis for models, or balance suggestions, but ultimately I am the only one who implements this stuff in any fashion.. I appreciate all the other people who help but I am the sole "developer" of EE.. I hope this alleviates all confusion..