Absolute Annihilation 1.5

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 07 Jun 2006, 13:26

yea i think we have esablish that core's advantge aint that big. I think now we need to see if both Arm and core bombers are OP!

Thats why i did some more testing !

4 flakkers, 1 long range MT, 2 radars protecting a fusion. All spread out a litthe, so the bombers atleath fly trougth a corridor of 1 screen of AA before they can drop their payload. When i tried it, 4 out of 6 phenoixes would drop their bombs at the fusion, and 3 out of 4 hurricanes would also drop them. Both the times it reduced the fusions health to about 300-500. 1 more bomber and their dead.

Machiosabre, how far is "in front"? 1 screen? 2 screens? I need 2 screens of AA to protect my fusions or what?

ginekolog, try that eqwation at ANY attack vs defence. Half the attacks in TAspring just gets eaten up by LLT and HLT, air is no diffrence. Besides, your enemy lost a fusion, and gotta rebuild it. He lost 1000 energy for a extend period of time, and if he was dependant on this, his entire economy would slow to a crawl when he depratly tries to rebuild his E sturctures. And what about other vital targets? Gantrys? Open annis?

Edit: Whoops.. meant 4 flakkers

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 07 Jun 2006, 13:29

On the bombers...

maybe remove the hurricane Anti-Air rocket... for the rest they are fine IMHO

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 07 Jun 2006, 13:35

I'm not sure exactly but its supercheap to just have defenders all over your base, that atleast ensures there wont ever be a second pass, I don't play at a very large res so my screens not very big, but I'd say the distance between the bottom of riverdale and where the pass is narrow.
I wouldn't worry about completely stopping them though aslong as the first pass is weakened and there is no second pass the dammage is minimal.
and flakkers aren't very good against bombers unless they're really spread out and they get hits for a long time.

The AA turret on both bombers kills way to many lvl1 fighters, thats true.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 07 Jun 2006, 13:55

wtf phoenix's can take MORE AA fire than HURRICANES? ...

sure...

meh bombers...

lets say i have fusion, it costs 5k metal. Enemy needs like 5 bombers to kill it, thats 450(E+M combined)*5 =~ 2,5k metal

now he must send 7 bobers in case my aa shots some down, tahts 3,5k metal. At the end he kills my fus (which i reclaim for 2.5k metal) but he looses 3,5k bombers + micro time etc.

All in all they are rarely worth it as u tend to loose all in assult at base (if opponent is half decent)

So dont make big deal out of bombers as atleast they are worth building sometimes. With nerf : NEVER.

thats funny, you combine e+m cost for bombers, not for fusion. 7 bombers for one fusion? sure, if you have a SHITLOAD of AA. if you have a light AA defense 3-4 bombers will easily do it (we're talking going hurricanes instead of adv kbot/vehicle here)
sometimes...sure...
besides why would he go for the fusion? 8 bombers, 2 in groups 1-4 thats 4x2 bombers, bomb the crap out of your defenses and march on through with t1 kbots/vehicles
Bombers ARE OP.

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 07 Jun 2006, 14:07

i combined cost for fus too!
arm fus:
Energy Cost: 28846
Metal Cost: 4504

thats less than 5k combined cost.

Only thing that bothers me is that both bombers eat LVL1 fighters.. thats not normal. Maybe reduce bombers AA and they are fine. Who sees enemy using air and doesnt get fighters DESERVE to get whiped.

Fighters should kill bombers and all is fine.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 07 Jun 2006, 14:17

Machiosabre wrote:I'm not sure exactly but its supercheap to just have defenders all over your base, that atleast ensures there wont ever be a second pass, I don't play at a very large res so my screens not very big, but I'd say the distance between the bottom of riverdale and where the pass is narrow.
I wouldn't worry about completely stopping them though aslong as the first pass is weakened and there is no second pass the dammage is minimal.
and flakkers aren't very good against bombers unless they're really spread out and they get hits for a long time.

The AA turret on both bombers kills way to many lvl1 fighters, thats true.

Defenders? To stop the second pass of level 2 bombers? O.o

That's like using a handgun vs a tank! level 2 bombers are speficaly made to withstand punisment from level 1 air defences. Anti swarm and anti bomber might have an effect, but defenders? O.o

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 07 Jun 2006, 14:23

You can easily mass defenders though. The only problem is that they're so fragile that if one or two bombers target them, the whole bunch will be dead.

God... anyone ever listen to track 4 of the TA cd? I think that's enough to get anyone in a modding mood

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 07 Jun 2006, 14:33

gine
recalculate
assume 4 bombers
1 fusion
4 flakkers
fly the hurricanes OVER the flakkers
watch the fusion explode
laugh at your noob errors
i've done it ingame (ARM flakkers + fusion) and it worked. thats a lot of res for those 4 adv bombers to punch through ^^

EDIT: Kix he is right a spread out massed defenders is by far the best approach, antibomber turrets are expensive, but great vs t1 bombers (can stop before dropping their payload) but vs T2 you are better of with t1 defenses

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:01

simple:

u come with 5 hurics, thats 2,2k AND 150k build time. I have some fighters and mts. U kill my fus and loose all bombers (most likely scenario) I suck metal and get half fus back and build new fus for 5km and 80k BT.

What we get? We both lost ~2.5k M and 150k BT. So no OPnes here as i see.

btw, 1 hur us 28k BT. Thats more than adv Veh Plant. Thats ALOT.

anyway, why nerf something that isnt abused. We all spamed 1,.44 flashes as they were uber and unbalanced. Do we all spam lvl2 bombers? No thanx, i rather get tremor/reapers and pwn your arse.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:14

u come with 5 hurics, thats 2,2k AND 150k build time. I have some fighters and mts. U kill my fus and loose all bombers (most likely scenario) I suck metal and get half fus back and build new fus for 5km and 80k BT.

What we get? We both lost ~2.5k M and 150k BT. So no OPnes here as i see.

You lose 1k per tick for a considerable number of ticks ^^ you spend time reclaiming the metal, dependant on your economy structure you may stall and have problems with metal extraction and unit production, you may be unable to fire berthas or annis, or even HLTs!

besides why would he go for the fusion? 8 bombers, 2 in groups 1-4 thats 4x2 bombers, bomb the crap out of your defenses and march on through with t1 kbots/vehicles

anyway, why nerf something that isnt abused. We all spamed 1,.44 flashes as they were uber and unbalanced. Do we all spam lvl2 bombers? No thanx, i rather get tremor/reapers and pwn your arse.

why nerf something that isn't abused? because its imbalanced? >.> Any way i challenge you on Greenhaven V3 to a 1v1.

Soulless1 · Post by **Soulless1** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:21

min3, you're still the only person here who thinks there's a problem, including all the people who've crunched through the numbers...

I think you just might have to accept that your perceptions are off

Can we talk about other stuff now?

like, are we going to be using any of the new shield mechanics (ie in ways different to the standard deflectors) in forthcoming versions? Or does Cadyr want to keep away from adding stuff just cos it looks cool?

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:40

just tried fighters vs hurc. I am using 1:70 conv ratio now like spring does.

30 lvl1 fig (80m) vs 5 hurc(500m), hurc won 1 left

10 hawk vs 4 hurc, 5 hawks left

also 5 mt killed 1 hurc with 4 left (killed it very fast)

we see that even lvl 1 MT's and fighters to some extend deal with bombers good. Esspecially if have some MT spread and some fighters hurc will just die.

They may still deliver payload and kill fus, but what if they dont? attackes looses 2,5k worh of bobmber that just died.

hawks own hurcs as we see.

and yes, lets play 1v1.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:55

Machiosabre doesnt 'do' 1v1s. Not the best guy to post and whine about balance when he refuses to back it up.

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 07 Jun 2006, 15:58

hey mr personal attack, you miss more playing only one side then you do playing only with several people.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 07 Jun 2006, 16:02

sorry for playing against skilled people and being 'elitist' i guess i better go bash some more noobs now. oh sorry, some noob called 'Machio' won't 1v1 me. can't bash noobs

oh noes

sorry for asking of the skill level of some idiot who blindly refuses that which is shoved in his face ^^ in the future i think that anyone should be able to pick a random issue, argue and flame about it, and never back it up. that would be _awesome_ eh?

Day · Post by **Day** » 07 Jun 2006, 16:05

how does him not wanting to 1v1 imply that hurricanes are overpowered?

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 07 Jun 2006, 16:07

is shows he is unwilling to back it up
it also implies he only plays team games
which implies he doesn't know how to play 1v1
which implies he's a noob
which implies he's a noob bitching about a balance issue
which implies he's wrong

Soulless1 · Post by **Soulless1** » 07 Jun 2006, 16:12

need this turn into yet another flamewar?

edit: Admittedly, I'm not sure if it counts as a war if all the shots are being fired by one side

Comp1337 · Post by **Comp1337** » 07 Jun 2006, 17:10

Min3mat wrote:sorry for playing against skilled people and being 'elitist' i guess i better go bash some more noobs now. oh sorry, some noob called 'Machio' won't 1v1 me. can't bash noobs oh noes
sorry for asking of the skill level of some idiot who blindly refuses that which is shoved in his face ^^ in the future i think that anyone should be able to pick a random issue, argue and flame about it, and never back it up. that would be _awesome_ eh?

Min3, i generally like you.. But sometimes i wonder how old you really are.
You shouldn't get into an fight at first chance, but instead stand over the people disagreeing with you without patronizing them.

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 07 Jun 2006, 17:12

Min3, please look at what you are saying, you really look like the biggest twat ever. There are plenty of people who don't play 1v1 and im sure plenty of them could beat you.

you need to stop and think before you make any more stupid posts imo

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 1.5