Expand & Exterminate .155 Released!
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
Same. It also lags when 40+ GD scout copters lag your pc with spammed bullets.Forboding Angel wrote:I have to agree here.Andreask wrote:It is good that scouts get addressed, again.
I find it irritating that most players build up their whole airforce from scouts only.
There are specific ground attack aircraft, so why would we need other units to fill that role?
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Thats one of my projects for tonight. Unfortunately maelstroms modweb generator doesn't seem to ahve any instructions with it, which sucks...Corbeau wrote:One thing that might be very useful for newbies (including me) would be a unit guide. One thing that I like about this mod is that it doesn't have the plethora of incredibly specialized or practically useless stuff that's in AA, but some guidelines would still be nice.
Me and Drone + a load of other guys played a 4v4 on Craggyhills (map pwns btw, Deci) I (we) noticed that the scouts HP is way over the top, but imo the damage is fine. I mean they should be used for killing off undefended lone mexes or cons etc, not confronted with any AA. They should die like flys to whoop-ass.
The GD lt. AAA towers are gayed also, they don't seem to be firing at full ROF vs scouts.. Aiming too slowly?
On another note, I found this mod to be quite easy to learn, if you're new, find someone else and get them to DL EE. 1v1 until you both feel like you dont stall all that much (I had mad stalls the first three times). THEN go out and play on pub servers. less WAAAHmbulance mod r brok3n that way.
The GD lt. AAA towers are gayed also, they don't seem to be firing at full ROF vs scouts.. Aiming too slowly?
On another note, I found this mod to be quite easy to learn, if you're new, find someone else and get them to DL EE. 1v1 until you both feel like you dont stall all that much (I had mad stalls the first three times). THEN go out and play on pub servers. less WAAAHmbulance mod r brok3n that way.
Last edited by Comp1337 on 03 May 2006, 22:25, edited 1 time in total.
I still dont quite get the concept of level 2.
Are the level 2 units meant to make lvl 1 superflous once you have a strong enough econ? Are they meant as a less powerful version of level 3, so you need to send level 1s as escorts?
Or are they just giant ressource sinks that make you lose the match ?
L2 tanks are artillery-fodder, as slow as they are.
I play GD mostly, and it seems that even the level 2 tanks are way too slow, to be anywhere near effective. Sure, the lvl 2 arty isnt hindered by being slow, but all the assault tanks are so cumbersome that they always get surrounded by level 1s and die, or get shelled to death while approching any enemy defensive position.
Deci always answers that Airtransports are a solution, and they sure are, if you want to do sneak attacks at undefended flanks with hvy tech 2 assault tanks.
I dont think that this is the intended role of GD´s level 2.
Isnt GD supposed to role over its enemy ? Well, the tech 2 tanks cant do that for sure.
Whenever you are able to pump out tech 2 at a decent rate, your enemy will still have enough level 1s to surround your fewer and slower tech 2 and shred them.
Because of that and because that is true for URC in most situations too, you hardly see lvl 2.
Instead, ppl go for air as a second fac.
That is ok, but good level 2 battles are a neat thing to have.
Fang, you proposed to lower the ressource need for l2 econ, could you plz add a speed boost of at least 50% for all tech 2 vehicles too ?
One cant assault an artillery positon (and all defensive lines include arty) with air tranports, and expect em to live past the drop-off, and the level 2s cant move fast enough to reach the enemy on their own before they are scrap.
ps.: i dont think that the dedicated ground attacked fliers are anymore difficult to reach than a brawler swarm, you need l2 econ for both.
Actually, you can build a little swarm with l1 econ too, if you are having the upper hand already.
The only thing is that scouts with weapons are cheaper anyway, they might be weak, but in a game where every second counts, the fastest unit, provinding cheap firepower against potentially undefended targets and simultaineouly circumventing all the artillery barages that kill head-on assaults is always the better option.
Even of you lower their damage, and lower their HP further, the armed scouts will still be an excellent unit to spam early in the game, as they are cheap and scince most players either forget or dont have the ressources to portect all their assets with dedicated AA.
Are the level 2 units meant to make lvl 1 superflous once you have a strong enough econ? Are they meant as a less powerful version of level 3, so you need to send level 1s as escorts?
Or are they just giant ressource sinks that make you lose the match ?
L2 tanks are artillery-fodder, as slow as they are.
I play GD mostly, and it seems that even the level 2 tanks are way too slow, to be anywhere near effective. Sure, the lvl 2 arty isnt hindered by being slow, but all the assault tanks are so cumbersome that they always get surrounded by level 1s and die, or get shelled to death while approching any enemy defensive position.
Deci always answers that Airtransports are a solution, and they sure are, if you want to do sneak attacks at undefended flanks with hvy tech 2 assault tanks.
I dont think that this is the intended role of GD´s level 2.
Isnt GD supposed to role over its enemy ? Well, the tech 2 tanks cant do that for sure.
Whenever you are able to pump out tech 2 at a decent rate, your enemy will still have enough level 1s to surround your fewer and slower tech 2 and shred them.
Because of that and because that is true for URC in most situations too, you hardly see lvl 2.
Instead, ppl go for air as a second fac.
That is ok, but good level 2 battles are a neat thing to have.
Fang, you proposed to lower the ressource need for l2 econ, could you plz add a speed boost of at least 50% for all tech 2 vehicles too ?
One cant assault an artillery positon (and all defensive lines include arty) with air tranports, and expect em to live past the drop-off, and the level 2s cant move fast enough to reach the enemy on their own before they are scrap.
ps.: i dont think that the dedicated ground attacked fliers are anymore difficult to reach than a brawler swarm, you need l2 econ for both.
Actually, you can build a little swarm with l1 econ too, if you are having the upper hand already.
The only thing is that scouts with weapons are cheaper anyway, they might be weak, but in a game where every second counts, the fastest unit, provinding cheap firepower against potentially undefended targets and simultaineouly circumventing all the artillery barages that kill head-on assaults is always the better option.
Even of you lower their damage, and lower their HP further, the armed scouts will still be an excellent unit to spam early in the game, as they are cheap and scince most players either forget or dont have the ressources to portect all their assets with dedicated AA.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
A:I still dont quite get the concept of level 2.
Are the level 2 units meant to make lvl 1 superflous once you have a strong enough econ? Are they meant as a less powerful version of level 3, so you need to send level 1s as escorts?
Or are they just giant ressource sinks that make you lose the match ?
L2 tanks are artillery-fodder, as slow as they are.
I play GD mostly, and it seem that even the level 2 tanks are way too slow, to be anywhere near effective. Sure, the lvl 2 arty isnt hindered by being slow, but all the assault tanks are so cumbersome that they always get surrounded by level 1s and die, or get shelled to death while approching any enemy defensive position.
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I'm chiding you here but it's for a purpose. Your'e still trying to play TA. Get out of that mindset. Here's the deal. Unlike TA lv1 is ALWAYS useful. L2 is meant to be sent in with lv1. Lv 2 and 3 are backup for lv1. Same with aircraft and ships, they are only backup. Mix your forces and line up your units. You will have a lot better results.
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A:Deci always answers that Airtransports are a solution, and they sure are, if you want to do sneak attacks at undefended flanks with hvy tech 2 assault tanks.
-------------------
Trans is not only for sneakyness. It is so that you can get your forces to the frontlines quickly. Thanks to TA most ppl don't understand this concept.
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A:I dont think that this is the intended role of GD´s level 2.
Isnt GD supposed to role over its enemy ? Well, the tech 2 tanks cant do that for sure.
Whenever you are able to pump out tech 2 at a decent rate, your enemy will still have enough level 1s to surround your fewer and slower tech 2 and shred them.
Because of that and because that is true for URC in most situations too, you hardly see lvl 2.
Instead, ppl go for air as a second fac.
That is ok, but good level 2 battles are a neat thing to have.
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See above, and understand, only then will you be non noobish in E&E
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A:Fang, you proposed to lower the ressource need for l2 econ, could you plz add a speed boost of at least 50% for all tech 2 vehicles too ?
One cant assault an artillery positon (and all defensive lines include arty) with air tranports, and expect em to live past the drop-off, and the level 2s cant move fast enough to reach the enemy on their own before they are scrap.
-------------------------------------
Learn to play the game. Don't try to change it to your level of adaptability. Instead, learn to adapt.
Are the level 2 units meant to make lvl 1 superflous once you have a strong enough econ? Are they meant as a less powerful version of level 3, so you need to send level 1s as escorts?
Or are they just giant ressource sinks that make you lose the match ?
L2 tanks are artillery-fodder, as slow as they are.
I play GD mostly, and it seem that even the level 2 tanks are way too slow, to be anywhere near effective. Sure, the lvl 2 arty isnt hindered by being slow, but all the assault tanks are so cumbersome that they always get surrounded by level 1s and die, or get shelled to death while approching any enemy defensive position.
-------
I'm chiding you here but it's for a purpose. Your'e still trying to play TA. Get out of that mindset. Here's the deal. Unlike TA lv1 is ALWAYS useful. L2 is meant to be sent in with lv1. Lv 2 and 3 are backup for lv1. Same with aircraft and ships, they are only backup. Mix your forces and line up your units. You will have a lot better results.
-----------------------
A:Deci always answers that Airtransports are a solution, and they sure are, if you want to do sneak attacks at undefended flanks with hvy tech 2 assault tanks.
-------------------
Trans is not only for sneakyness. It is so that you can get your forces to the frontlines quickly. Thanks to TA most ppl don't understand this concept.
-------------------------
A:I dont think that this is the intended role of GD´s level 2.
Isnt GD supposed to role over its enemy ? Well, the tech 2 tanks cant do that for sure.
Whenever you are able to pump out tech 2 at a decent rate, your enemy will still have enough level 1s to surround your fewer and slower tech 2 and shred them.
Because of that and because that is true for URC in most situations too, you hardly see lvl 2.
Instead, ppl go for air as a second fac.
That is ok, but good level 2 battles are a neat thing to have.
-----------------------
See above, and understand, only then will you be non noobish in E&E
------------------------------------
A:Fang, you proposed to lower the ressource need for l2 econ, could you plz add a speed boost of at least 50% for all tech 2 vehicles too ?
One cant assault an artillery positon (and all defensive lines include arty) with air tranports, and expect em to live past the drop-off, and the level 2s cant move fast enough to reach the enemy on their own before they are scrap.
-------------------------------------
Learn to play the game. Don't try to change it to your level of adaptability. Instead, learn to adapt.
ok.
Hm, so E&E is balanced around level 1.
Yet, i heard someone say that l2 and specifically l3 is meant to do head on assaults. Too bad that they are so slow, that they are always dead before they get to fire at the defenses which have a longer range scince the last updates.
You cant exactly use a hvy and slow unit as BACKUP for a far more mobile force, that is all the l1 units.
I tried things like escorting one medium missile tank with 6 small, and of course the medium dies, while the small ones can actually kill the target.
The hvy vehicles are just meat-shields.
Its not like i always lose or something, Fang did observe a series of games with a whole lot of ppl in which i took part in most games, and won a good amount.
I used Air Trans to get l2 to the front, but you cant get exactly near if you dont want to get the copter shot.
Well, if the mod is actually meant to be played on l1 for its majority of games, that is ok, and i am indeed thinking in TA-Categories, where you are dead when you dont go l2 by the 20th minute.
But, scince this is beta, and l2 is rare and l3 almost never seen, i think a few changes might not be the worst to try.
And a little more speed would make l2 tanks oh so much more effective, especially for their high price.
Well, perhaps NI handles exactly that way, and i am actually just veering of course with teh GD.
Hm, so E&E is balanced around level 1.
Yet, i heard someone say that l2 and specifically l3 is meant to do head on assaults. Too bad that they are so slow, that they are always dead before they get to fire at the defenses which have a longer range scince the last updates.
You cant exactly use a hvy and slow unit as BACKUP for a far more mobile force, that is all the l1 units.
I tried things like escorting one medium missile tank with 6 small, and of course the medium dies, while the small ones can actually kill the target.
The hvy vehicles are just meat-shields.
Its not like i always lose or something, Fang did observe a series of games with a whole lot of ppl in which i took part in most games, and won a good amount.
I used Air Trans to get l2 to the front, but you cant get exactly near if you dont want to get the copter shot.
Well, if the mod is actually meant to be played on l1 for its majority of games, that is ok, and i am indeed thinking in TA-Categories, where you are dead when you dont go l2 by the 20th minute.
But, scince this is beta, and l2 is rare and l3 almost never seen, i think a few changes might not be the worst to try.
And a little more speed would make l2 tanks oh so much more effective, especially for their high price.
Well, perhaps NI handles exactly that way, and i am actually just veering of course with teh GD.
NI forces expand in scope with their new factory...
About lvl 2 I have thought for some time they are underpowered... lvl 3 is nasty, and lvl 1 is hoardish but lvl 2 is just mech, except the arty... Im debating several ideas...
Idea one:
reduced factory cost, increased speed (slightly less than lvl 1 but not by much) slight increase to armor (5-10%), slight decrease in general cost (5-10%)
Idea two:
reduced factory cost, increased dmg (50%) slightly increased speed, cost left alone
Idea three:
damage increase (25-50%), armor increase (25-50%), slight cost reduction (5-10%)
Im leaning to idea 1 right off my head... i would like to see lvl 2 not so much replace lvl 1, still need them for support as lvl 1 will out number them, but that a mixed lvl 1/lvl 2 force should own a singular lvl 1 force that even somewhat outnumbers them.. but to a certain extent lvl 2 should somewhat replace lvl 1... but not completely..
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
I always use Lvl 1 as raiders and meat sheilds, buying my lvl 2 and 3 tanks to get close enough to BLAST THE ENEMY TO HELL! Really its that simple, you have the lvl 1 tanks absorb the artillery by swarming, then lvl 2 units actually bring the REAL meaty firepower to the enemy base. Lvl 1 take forever to destroy the enemy base, unless its really, really poorly defended. But they can hold up the enemy for you to bring the heavy tanks to bear and blast apart the enemy!
The stats i posted should give you some idea where lvl2 is atm. Andreask, no offense, but you should learn the game some more, everytime i played against you and your teams, i had an extremely easy time winning, and although that doesnt necessarily mean you dont have the best idea how to play this mod, it is very likely that it is so, i find lvl2 tanks(gd), ion and arty (both sides) very useful!
GD lvl2 doesnt suck, except for rocket tanks and amphibious units which have ridiculously low damage.
Fang, youre suggesting extreme changes across the board, please dont fuck your mod up. No offense to other mod makers, but this kind of extreme indiscriminate, ill-tested and random changes tend to send mods into balance yo-yos.
GD lvl2 doesnt suck, except for rocket tanks and amphibious units which have ridiculously low damage.
Fang, youre suggesting extreme changes across the board, please dont fuck your mod up. No offense to other mod makers, but this kind of extreme indiscriminate, ill-tested and random changes tend to send mods into balance yo-yos.
Last edited by krogothe on 03 May 2006, 01:55, edited 1 time in total.
I havent changed anything... and i havent got any feedback on the NI screenshots.. these are proposed changes... im not saying lvl 2 isnt useful, i am saying that lvl 2 does not show up often enough for my taste in any quantity and only seems to crop up once someone has pretty much won or if somone is the last player on a team being ground into the dirt on a chokepointish map..
I dont really care what NI looks like, but what they play like. They could be flat squares for all i care, provided i could tell what was what.
LVL2 gets used in around 40% of my games, its just it soon gets replaced by lvl3 (38% of my games id guess).
We need to study it better, but id guess a factory only costing as much as one or two units sounds wrong. Making big changes like that will likely solve the problem but seed other hard to fix issues that will only pop up much later.
LVL2 gets used in around 40% of my games, its just it soon gets replaced by lvl3 (38% of my games id guess).
We need to study it better, but id guess a factory only costing as much as one or two units sounds wrong. Making big changes like that will likely solve the problem but seed other hard to fix issues that will only pop up much later.
