New map format.
Moderator: Moderators
The new map format is *not* a replacement for the old one. It is a different method of mapping for Spring, and although it is in many cases superior to the old format, it cannot do everything the old format can. We must not stop supporting the old format just because we have a new one. Listen to AF and FA, people.
I don't like to play cards, however...Forboding Angel wrote: Neuralize, as a non-real-mapper I don't think that you have any authority whatsoever to even begin to suggest that we ditch the old format. There is nothing wrong with it! Those maps are still fun to play!
It's not like I provided the first 4 new maps to play on right as the last new format hit, or that my map Castles was the most downloaded current format map on Fileuniverse. I'm not going to lie either, I spent about a minute making all of those maps, all at once, of course. (My computer is the hawtness, renders shit in .01 seconds.)
However, I appreciate and respect with all of my heart that you did in fact set aside a large portion of your freetime to make a bunch of maps for a game that no one is getting any money for, except maybe bandwidth wranglers. Such a dedication does entitle you have a say and perhaps a significant amount of gravitas in the issue of a new format and accordingly in this thread.
That said, I get a vibe that you might not have read anything I wrote in the first post of this thread. More than anything, I just wanted to get some discussion and dialogue going so we can get a feel for how much this could or will change our community.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Oh I definately read what you said, but you are shooting in the dark without a care or clue of what you are hitting.
THe new format is as fiz said simply a different method of making maps and rendering them. It is in no way shape of form suitable as a replacement.
As a non-real-mapper you cannont possibly begin to grasp the HUGE differences in the mapping styles and the advantages of each.
There are HUGE advantages to the old system, such as drawing the entire map BY HAND! In the new format that is simply impossible.
Neuralize, I have nothing against you, but I will slam you hard for this so don't get personal about it...
For another point, exactly how many new mappers are going to take the time to do their shit right? as opposed to just selecting color ranges in photoshop and call it a day? You are under the stupidly misguided impression that every map made in the new format will be gold in the crapper.
Got some news for you, it is now easier than ever to make an uber craptastic map. And most likely that's what will happen, BIG TIME.
Cheesescan, nothing personal towards you either, but you havn't been mapping long enough or gone in depth enough to understand the issue fully either.
As I said before, the old map format will be phased out, over my rotten, bloody, puss filled corpse.
BTW, Neuralize, thank you for the nice post above. I want to get rid of the craptastic maps as much as anyone, but some bleeding heart retard is always going to step out say what a horrible injustice it would be.
I say that I'm gonna delete flattypatty from FU and watch the flames roll in. YOu can't have your cake and eat it too, you need to remember that.
Edit: As an added note, Map control could be maintained by appointing official mappers for Spring. At that point, any map that is not made and sanctioned officially is subject to a short life expectancy if it is retardedly sucky.
THe new format is as fiz said simply a different method of making maps and rendering them. It is in no way shape of form suitable as a replacement.
As a non-real-mapper you cannont possibly begin to grasp the HUGE differences in the mapping styles and the advantages of each.
There are HUGE advantages to the old system, such as drawing the entire map BY HAND! In the new format that is simply impossible.
Neuralize, I have nothing against you, but I will slam you hard for this so don't get personal about it...
For another point, exactly how many new mappers are going to take the time to do their shit right? as opposed to just selecting color ranges in photoshop and call it a day? You are under the stupidly misguided impression that every map made in the new format will be gold in the crapper.
Got some news for you, it is now easier than ever to make an uber craptastic map. And most likely that's what will happen, BIG TIME.
Cheesescan, nothing personal towards you either, but you havn't been mapping long enough or gone in depth enough to understand the issue fully either.
As I said before, the old map format will be phased out, over my rotten, bloody, puss filled corpse.
BTW, Neuralize, thank you for the nice post above. I want to get rid of the craptastic maps as much as anyone, but some bleeding heart retard is always going to step out say what a horrible injustice it would be.
I say that I'm gonna delete flattypatty from FU and watch the flames roll in. YOu can't have your cake and eat it too, you need to remember that.
Edit: As an added note, Map control could be maintained by appointing official mappers for Spring. At that point, any map that is not made and sanctioned officially is subject to a short life expectancy if it is retardedly sucky.
Forboding Angel... Its so nice to see we can agree on somthing!!
And as Hrmph pointed out this would compleatly screw terragen users (of which Im one).
to be honest, I find it satifying to spend 10 hours renedering and then weeks touching up a large image. The new format would remove all that and I doubt I could make anthing half as nice.
So I think we should just agree that eh old format won't be phased out, unless you want to see alot of rotten, bloody, puss filled mapper corpses.
aGorm
And as Hrmph pointed out this would compleatly screw terragen users (of which Im one).
to be honest, I find it satifying to spend 10 hours renedering and then weeks touching up a large image. The new format would remove all that and I doubt I could make anthing half as nice.
So I think we should just agree that eh old format won't be phased out, unless you want to see alot of rotten, bloody, puss filled mapper corpses.
aGorm
While some may not recognize from their grand stallion of a high horse that I actually understand the finer points, full implications and nuances involved in making "real" maps. (l3dt, terragen, bryce, photoshop drawing, rendering time+effort)
I believe that wiping clean the mapping slate and starting anew with the advent of a new format would be refreshing for the community, as players would be forced to play new maps in a new format with the new features of that update. Many of them would have to come out of their little Speedmetal and Altored Divide holes. (At least until they were forcefully recreated..) Too many times I feel a good map is released, but no one bothers to play it because they're stuck playing the same map that has always been played. While it is a likely possibility that players will eventually settle on another map that they feel comfortable with, I think that a total shake up and reformation of the Spring mapping community is a positive and progressive thing. I would highly doubt that such an event would kill the community and result in a mass exodus.
Ultimately I recognize this will probably not occur again because we have a choice. For during the first map wipe, there was no choice, the maps were broken by the new code, you could cry all you want, but you were not going to keep compatibilty. I thought it was pretty cool to see all the new maps either redone or revised or changed in someway for the new format.
It's too bad that this upcoming map format was presented intiately as an additional format and not a replacement format. Well, at least in my eyes. I'm kinda a sucker for creative revolutions and being forced to start over again.
I believe that wiping clean the mapping slate and starting anew with the advent of a new format would be refreshing for the community, as players would be forced to play new maps in a new format with the new features of that update. Many of them would have to come out of their little Speedmetal and Altored Divide holes. (At least until they were forcefully recreated..) Too many times I feel a good map is released, but no one bothers to play it because they're stuck playing the same map that has always been played. While it is a likely possibility that players will eventually settle on another map that they feel comfortable with, I think that a total shake up and reformation of the Spring mapping community is a positive and progressive thing. I would highly doubt that such an event would kill the community and result in a mass exodus.
Ultimately I recognize this will probably not occur again because we have a choice. For during the first map wipe, there was no choice, the maps were broken by the new code, you could cry all you want, but you were not going to keep compatibilty. I thought it was pretty cool to see all the new maps either redone or revised or changed in someway for the new format.
It's too bad that this upcoming map format was presented intiately as an additional format and not a replacement format. Well, at least in my eyes. I'm kinda a sucker for creative revolutions and being forced to start over again.
Your forgetting one realy important differance here though... Last time the formats werealmost the same. Just tweek things up and run it in the new map conve and BOOM, your hard work was remade in the new format.
This format is so totaly and utterly differnt that it would take AGES and Ages just to remake one map, and even then in my case it would not look as good as the old map.
Now I'm one of the sufferers of "good map noone playes" so I know what your on about with teh "get people out of there holes and stuff... but Im affraid that while theres alot of crap about, destroying all the maps is not the answer!!! It just cant be!
I mean.. what aboutt he maps Im working on now??? If you change the format they they will have been for nothing, as apart from the heightmap what can i keep for the new map format?? Nothing!
aGorm
This format is so totaly and utterly differnt that it would take AGES and Ages just to remake one map, and even then in my case it would not look as good as the old map.
Now I'm one of the sufferers of "good map noone playes" so I know what your on about with teh "get people out of there holes and stuff... but Im affraid that while theres alot of crap about, destroying all the maps is not the answer!!! It just cant be!
I mean.. what aboutt he maps Im working on now??? If you change the format they they will have been for nothing, as apart from the heightmap what can i keep for the new map format?? Nothing!
aGorm
Hot secks in idea form!Forboding Angel wrote:I say that I'm gonna delete flattypatty from FU and watch the flames roll in. YOu can't have your cake and eat it too, you need to remember that.
Edit: As an added note, Map control could be maintained by appointing official mappers for Spring. At that point, any map that is not made and sanctioned officially is subject to a short life expectancy if it is retardedly sucky.
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
I understand the idea but I think you can better solve this with something like a TAMEC site. Call it SMECNeuralize wrote:...
I believe that wiping clean the mapping slate and starting anew with the advent of a new format would be refreshing for the community, as players would be forced to play new maps in a new format with the new features of that update. ...
I also think Spring will move to a development process where maps are made for a specific mod(s). But that is still further down the pipeline.
You do realize theres an entire array of maps that can never be remade?
For example, all of IceXuicks maps have hand drawn aspects and wouldnt look the same at all if remade. Delta siege cant be remade in the new map format because its rectangular.
Duck cant be remade
Speedmetal/duo/quattro/waters would need a new texture, as the platform edges cant be recreated.
PicassoCT's maps cant be recreated either
For example, all of IceXuicks maps have hand drawn aspects and wouldnt look the same at all if remade. Delta siege cant be remade in the new map format because its rectangular.
Duck cant be remade
Speedmetal/duo/quattro/waters would need a new texture, as the platform edges cant be recreated.
PicassoCT's maps cant be recreated either
So has anyone come up with any ideas on using terragen with the new map format? The only thing I can come up with is creating a seamless tile out of a texture generated by terragen. Then to create blendmaps for the various textures, one could generate them with l3dt or do it by hand. Of course it will never look the same as the original terragen render.
My simple method for creating a blendmap with L3DT: I just color all the textures black except the one which I want the blendmap for (that is white). Then I render the texture like normal but without shadows/light effects. The product is a full-size black/white blendmap which I can then edit and shrink down to the correct size for spring.
My simple method for creating a blendmap with L3DT: I just color all the textures black except the one which I want the blendmap for (that is white). Then I render the texture like normal but without shadows/light effects. The product is a full-size black/white blendmap which I can then edit and shrink down to the correct size for spring.
Yhe, but a map editor is no help for terregen users... I mean... thats not how it works... Terregen doesn't just tile a few textures depending on height and slope ect... thats what L3DT does. I mean... basicly any map made in L3DT is like a large reneder of a map in teh new format... the new format is practicly L3DT in spring...
Well not quite, but you get what i mean... Its a darn site closer. Terregen and handmade stuff is just nothing like the new format.
Buggies editor... Its not just goona be for the new format is it?? Cause that would be realy realy annoying... Placing features on the map for real and setting there rotation is far to cool, and finding that it can only be done in the new format would just be.... very annoying.
Dam it all.
WHY. WHY DID YOU MAKE A NEW FORMAT!!! WHY!!!
aGorm
(ummmm leave out the last line on second thoughts...)
Well not quite, but you get what i mean... Its a darn site closer. Terregen and handmade stuff is just nothing like the new format.
Buggies editor... Its not just goona be for the new format is it?? Cause that would be realy realy annoying... Placing features on the map for real and setting there rotation is far to cool, and finding that it can only be done in the new format would just be.... very annoying.
Dam it all.
WHY. WHY DID YOU MAKE A NEW FORMAT!!! WHY!!!
aGorm
(ummmm leave out the last line on second thoughts...)
I don't want fake bumpmapping, and maps of 50 mb that run 100 fps on my geforceBuggies editor... Its not just goona be for the new format is it?? Cause that would be realy realy annoying... Placing features on the map for real and setting there rotation is far to cool, and finding that it can only be done in the new format would just be.... very annoying.
If you don't want to go along with new stuff, too bad. I really don't feel like supporting an outdated set terrain rendering methods. Tiles might have worked well on the old hardware with less vid ram, but with new cards it's just completely out of balance.
And IMO, your texturing isn't what makes your maps good, it's the heightmap. Which is totally reusable in the new format.
aGorm, that last map you posted shots off the one with the water going horizontally across the middle, could be done in the new map format all you'd need is to generate textures for the grass and the mountain (2 textures), than a blendmap, infact when i first saw the shots I thought it was already in the new map format till I realized it was rectangular and you'd said otherwise.
But the new map format should allow rectangular maps as long as they're square, they can have a rectangular game area..
But the new map format should allow rectangular maps as long as they're square, they can have a rectangular game area..
Let's go throught the reasons for keeping the old map format around:
1. There are a lot've great maps made in it. Remaking them takes away hours or days of peoples' lives, and they work well. The reasoning behind replacing them has to be pretty compelling. "Forcing an artistic rebirth" is a chimera- I see zero evidence that mappers aren't being incredibly creative, and need a collective kick in the butt.
2. There are a lot've map concepts that are simply not practical in the new format, such as (ahem) NanoArena, AfterShock, and yes... SpeedMetal. Which, although cordially hated by some, is obviously liked by many.
3. The new format, while suitable for very large terrains of random ground, is, to my knowledge, not terribly suitable for doing things like cities or other organized spaces. Putting together a L3DT-like set of forested hills is nice, but I'd like to continue to see cities and other complex terrains that are more interesting.
4. The argument that the "heightmap is the main thing, and that's still compatible", while brave, is incorrect in my opinion. Many maps would look pretty horrible with the new format, and many maps simply aren't going to be practical at all. My on-the-side-when-I-have-spare-time map project involves building a ruined city. I've been working on the heightmap and some new techniques for ages, trying to get it all right. And I cannot, for the life of me, imagine it looking decent with splatters. Yes, working with gigantic image files is a problem. Yes, it'd be nice to get rid of them. But it's very hard to imagine not having them at all.
1. There are a lot've great maps made in it. Remaking them takes away hours or days of peoples' lives, and they work well. The reasoning behind replacing them has to be pretty compelling. "Forcing an artistic rebirth" is a chimera- I see zero evidence that mappers aren't being incredibly creative, and need a collective kick in the butt.
2. There are a lot've map concepts that are simply not practical in the new format, such as (ahem) NanoArena, AfterShock, and yes... SpeedMetal. Which, although cordially hated by some, is obviously liked by many.
3. The new format, while suitable for very large terrains of random ground, is, to my knowledge, not terribly suitable for doing things like cities or other organized spaces. Putting together a L3DT-like set of forested hills is nice, but I'd like to continue to see cities and other complex terrains that are more interesting.
4. The argument that the "heightmap is the main thing, and that's still compatible", while brave, is incorrect in my opinion. Many maps would look pretty horrible with the new format, and many maps simply aren't going to be practical at all. My on-the-side-when-I-have-spare-time map project involves building a ruined city. I've been working on the heightmap and some new techniques for ages, trying to get it all right. And I cannot, for the life of me, imagine it looking decent with splatters. Yes, working with gigantic image files is a problem. Yes, it'd be nice to get rid of them. But it's very hard to imagine not having them at all.
Have I EVER made a 50 meg map??? No. I keep my sizes resonable (IE 10 or less) so don't go on about sizes.maps of 50 mb
But Fine. Go ahead. Make my day. Ditch the current format. Like I sodding give a dam its just a stupid game that I play every now and then. I guess you can't have everything in life can you. I'll just have to start again. Or maybe I wont. Who knows.
Hang on I've been here befor. Why the hell am I getting so pissed off over somthing so pointless. This always happens, we start some dam stupid argument and it esclates and I end up feeling crap. This is so stupid.
Hang it all I think its the heat. Getting to my head. Quite a nice little kitten to. And I mean, come on, the new map format can't be that bad can it? I should just learn to lump it. Maybe I'll end up making somthing so gobsmakingly good with it I'll be surpiredsedsed. And then I can Say "Wahay" and eat a party hat. That or it will be crap. Like most of what I don. Kinda suxes when your essing things clearly dont it. Nothing lie k a good coffeee.
Anyway... what was I saying. Yes.
aGorm