Final Frontier? - Page 3

Final Frontier?

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

Moderator: Moderators

Egarwaen
Posts: 1207
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 21:19

Post by Egarwaen »

Optimus Prime wrote:They like it to controle a single AK and destroy with it half of the economy of a base if you break through the defence. And all that in 10 sec (like you can see when 100 windgenerators blow up at the same time).
Only if the player building the base sucks. Watch a replay with a bunch of high-level players fighting each other sometime. They tend to have very deeply layered defences and very spread-out econ, so that a single unit or mob of units getting loose in your base is not disaster. Given the number of ways one can pull this off in AA (Gremlins, Sharpshooters, Skuttles, ...), this is a good thing.

Of course, a newbie will be utterly trashed if a unit finds its way through his defensive lines, because he builds flat defences and few combat units.

And 100 wind gens? WTF? Are you playing on Speed Metal or something?
Last edited by Egarwaen on 20 Jul 2006, 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

but if you listen to the people, who are acting like noobs, your mod will go down. If there are some good people, who are very good in some parts where other people arent, it shows me, that there IS a solution for the problem and the noobs have to find it.
I often (really often) see people building a level 3 yard with lvl 1 mexes and there is nothing more to say as "noob" to them. I mean thats not a question of the mod but a question of learning.
I spoke with min3 right before the last release and i wanted to boost the eco, but he told me it is ok like it is and only the noobs dont know how to build eco. Now he says no because i didnt changed some things he wanted to force me, so i cant take him serious any more.

To the maps: you cant make a mod which is good on all maps because maps differ too much. Especially when it is a mod which plays in space and 99% of the maps are ground maps. There are a lot of maps which work good (in the aspect of economy) but i wont vote them because it looks odd flying with spaceships over a forest. Ok sometimes i play them too, but normally not.
Things do not flow smoothly it feels very forced. A lot of the numbers really work out in odd ways.
??? any examples? What is not smoothly?
Also again, if you only listen to yourself + fanboys you will get the wrong opinion

i listen to all people i know they are playing this mod often and know approximately how it works and how to build a moderate eco in a good time but the people here are everytime the same and they wouldnt play ff even if i would change it the way they want. For example i never saw Nemo playing his FF variant.
The best way for me to discuss about changes is right after a game when i see that something has to be fixed. And this happened very often, but in the last 3 versions, there were very rare points which had to be fixed. And that shows me that the mod takes a good way.
the FF economy is designed around metal maps.

Please don't try to tell me that its a good system.
strange, so i m playing my mod wrong o.O. I never played on a metal map.
User avatar
Nemo
Spring 1944 Developer
Posts: 1376
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 19:44

Post by Nemo »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen all FF maps are metal maps.
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

what is a metalmap to you? All ff maps are maps placed in space with asteroids out of rock with metal inside.
For me a metalmap is a map with tons of metal and an extractor radius as big as the groundbox of the extractor.
FF maps have moderate metal (comparable to comet catcher) and an extractor radius of about 200 or so. For me thats not a metal map. About 1/3 of all maps out there have more metal than FF maps. 1/3 have about the same metal and 1/3 have less metal. That looks ok to me.

edit: you have to vary. Some FF maps (the one made by hrmph) have few metal. The FF- maps have moderate metal. Perhaps i will ask hrmph sometime if i can change the metal on his maps a bit.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Post by Neddie »

Alright, just stop yelling at each other. Nobody is making any headway, and this calls for a new approach.

I have a few proposals.

Optimus:
1. Draft five or six people to help you balance FF as a beta, and listen to them.
2. Consider input from everybody like the other modders seem to.
3. Input about the mod does not reflect upon you, it reflects upon the mod. It isn't personal.
4. The economy of FF is a problem, and nobody aside from you still defends it. Just bear that in mind.

Nemo:
I for one want a new Low-Fat FF in the meantime. If there is support, will you make a current one?

Everybody:
1. Be civil.
2. Present ideas in a collected manner.
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

neddiedrow wrote:Alright, just stop yelling at each other. Nobody is making any headway, and this calls for a new approach.

I have a few proposals.

Optimus:
1. Draft five or six people to help you balance FF as a beta, and listen to them.
2. Consider input from everybody like the other modders seem to.
3. Input about the mod does not reflect upon you, it reflects upon the mod. It isn't personal.
4. The economy of FF is a problem, and nobody aside from you still defends it. Just bear that in mind.

Nemo:
I for one want a new Low-Fat FF in the meantime. If there is support, will you make a current one?

Everybody:
1. Be civil.
2. Present ideas in a collected manner.
hm... you every played FF? I did for about half a year now. I started 30 version before and came to this point step after step. If you come and play a game vs me and you tell me exactly which unit is unbalanced and i cant counter your unit with another one, than you are right (or show it me in a replay). But you will see that you have to search a long time till you find one. Exactly that is the point of this pointless discussion, the people cant show me whats wrong because i will be able to show them in game (there is no better way) that they are wrong.
I came to the whole balancing after more then 1000 hours of testing, so believe me when i say you, there is a sense after all, you just have to learn it.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Post by Neddie »

Just take my suggestions into account. There are plenty of people who want to help make this mod into a powerhouse if you'll only let them.

And yes, I have played FF. Not in public since 1.14, but I still boot it in Spring Single Player and play with it when my internet is down.

I never claimed a particular unit was imbalanced. I don't even think I've said the mod isn't fun. My opinion, and let this stand publicly, is that the mod does not live up to it's gameplay potential.

I have an idea. Let us get everybody together for a ten-player FFA of Final Frontier on a large map, and see what happens. Of course, this means Islington, Min3Mat, Smoth, Fang... all the people who have strong opinions either way.

Organize this through PMs and the Game Lobby. Get it together, and test the way that you advocate.
User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22309
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Post by smoth »

neddiedrow wrote: 1. Be civil.
I initially misread that as:

1. Be evil

LOL


and OP DO NOT DISSAGREA WITH THE GIANT CRAB!
User avatar
FizWizz
Posts: 1998
Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 11:42

Post by FizWizz »

question: do ten people even play FF anymore?
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

when i m in the lobby, not afk and not mod testing, i m up for a ff game every time. Just pm whoever it is.
But for a fair oppinion, you need more than one single game. And thats what i m doing all the time when i m playing ff - analysing weaknesses of the gameplay, so yes - your suggestion is OK but it is not new to me because i discuss very often after and in the game about the mod.
But i dont wanna discuss here in the forum with people who dont played it often (newest version for sure).
question: do ten people even play FF anymore?
sure, but you have to find them. 3 of my friends are playing it often when there are enough for a 3 vs 3 - thats the size i think it makes the most fun.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Post by Neddie »

Optimus Prime wrote:when i m in the lobby, not afk and not mod testing, i m up for a ff game every time. Just pm whoever it is.
But for a fair oppinion, you need more than one single game. And thats what i m doing all the time when i m playing ff - analysing weaknesses of the gameplay, so yes - your suggestion is OK but it is not new to me because i discuss very often after and in the game about the mod.
But i dont wanna discuss here in the forum with people who dont played it often (newest version for sure).
We are going to hold you to that.

Yes, it does take more than one game. Far more. However, one game is a great start.

Check with how Deci is doing on cleaning up the main thread, or start a new Final Frontier one. We need to have a dedicated place for this discussion, as it really is starting to spread to everything you do.
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

i m doing pretty nothing in the forum. Even this thread wasnt started from me.. just read it from start and you will see.
I decided to not make a new ff thread anyome because of the bad discussion at the end of the last thread. If people really wanna help, they can say and show it to me in the lobby and in game - people are doing so and it works fine.
User avatar
Nemo
Spring 1944 Developer
Posts: 1376
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 19:44

Post by Nemo »

neddiedrow wrote:
Nemo:
I for one want a new Low-Fat FF in the meantime. If there is support, will you make a current one?
Sure. Its just a matter of updating the dependancies to the newest FF. there are still some things that I never finished implementing (bombers), but for the most part it should be fine.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Post by Neddie »

Nemo wrote: Sure. Its just a matter of updating the dependancies to the newest FF. there are still some things that I never finished implementing (bombers), but for the most part it should be fine.
Thank you, Nemo.
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

Nemo you have to change the whole balancing when you want to change the ranges, los and hp. And that means that you have to change them carefully and not just with a constant factor, else the balance is broken.
This means that you need at least 100 (i guess more than 500) hours of hard testing.
For example:
if you double the range of a unit which had a range of 1000 to 2000, an ods which is very slow and has a range of for example 300, now has a range of 600.
Before your version it had to move 1000 - 300 = 700 units to be able to shoot at the other unit. After your version the ods has to move 2000 - 600 = 1400. So the distance of the unit is 2x as far. Sure you could increase speed by 2 now to compensate this, but than you will get other problems like aiming problems and so on.
The only variable you can change by a constant factor is the price (energy and metal). This wont break the balancing. All other variables are very hard to change - believe me i did it in one of the very early versions and did it step by step.

just a hint
User avatar
Zoombie
Posts: 6149
Joined: 15 Mar 2005, 07:08

Post by Zoombie »

OP, hate to break it too you, but telling people to just make the game faster to make the game...faster is NOT a good way of balancing things.
KlavoHunter
Posts: 141
Joined: 28 May 2006, 21:41

Post by KlavoHunter »

neddiedrow wrote:Just take my suggestions into account. There are plenty of people who want to help make this mod into a powerhouse if you'll only let them.

And yes, I have played FF. Not in public since 1.14, but I still boot it in Spring Single Player and play with it when my internet is down.

I never claimed a particular unit was imbalanced. I don't even think I've said the mod isn't fun. My opinion, and let this stand publicly, is that the mod does not live up to it's gameplay potential.

I have an idea. Let us get everybody together for a ten-player FFA of Final Frontier on a large map, and see what happens. Of course, this means Islington, Min3Mat, Smoth, Fang... all the people who have strong opinions either way.

Organize this through PMs and the Game Lobby. Get it together, and test the way that you advocate.
I agree, and would like to volunteer to test this.

After all, if you can't trust the opinions of somebody who extensively tested OTA FF from version 3.3 to version 7.4...
User avatar
Min3mat
Posts: 3455
Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

I have an idea. Let us get everybody together for a ten-player FFA of Final Frontier on a large map, and see what happens. Of course, this means Islington, Min3Mat, Smoth, Fang... all the people who have strong opinions either way.
roflmao yeah lets play a 10 way FFA that would be FUN and INTERESTING and a LEARNING EXPERIENCE.
[/sarcasm]

what i mean by 'FF's balance is fucked up' is several things. Firstly raiding is both difficult and costly. guess what the best unit to use is? BUILDERS??? just expand with 2-4 and reclaim you opponents mexes, don't use the fighters as they behave RETARDEDLY. Jinking in and out of range so not even firing half the time. This is...disturbing.
Two, The costs...can't you scale them down somewhat and then scale down the metal? its just such a absurd scale atm it makes comparing anything a calculator affair.
Three. The early game buildup is fine as long as fighters are given a buff (not behaving like idiots) maneveurability of t1 antifighters needs a slight buff so you have some degree of control over them, T2 fighters should be even better at turning (specifically the ones which have to make runs)
Four. Useless units, wtf is the wisp for? and its counterpart? This confuses the HECK out of noobs (not that you have a influx of players into FF anyway)
Five. T3 economy, as insane as it is retarded. Screws up gameplay tbh.
Six. The gameplay is not very dynamic at all. Removing the T3 economy might help this a little.
Seven. maps. so what if you are a modder, your mod is NOTHING without maps, and also changes need to be made to radar so it can be used to spy within its radius completely, regardless of terrain (hope this is possible)
Eight. The mod isn't halfway near done yet you plan for a third race to add to the imbalance. Improve the models of the first, play about with scripting, improve the balance. then in 30 years or so add a 3rd side if that makes you happy.
Nine. The balance. Is buggered. Don't even argue this, FF isn't bad on large maps for 2v2/3v3 or those skillless 4v4/5v5 with utter noobs you so love. But on a nice small 1v1 map ODS are way to good (radar not functioning as it should doesn't help this), either make a better 1v1 map which is bigger with the same amount of metal, but distributed better. Remember the only good 2v2 (or bigger if thats the way you like it @.@) is FF-Surrounded.
Remember by 'not bad' i am NOT saying it is well balanced or anywhere near, simply that with the ODS problem dissipated it is not such a problem.
Thats my opinion and its been that way for a long time. Not that you'll listen but hopefully someone else might and rescue FF (if they have to pry it from your cold dead hands >.<)
User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22309
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Post by smoth »

yeah OP, I should be soo lucky to have people who will sit sit down and down do what minemat is doing for you.

I have yet to get this sort of post.. :\
User avatar
Optimus Prime
Posts: 755
Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31

Post by Optimus Prime »

Min3mat wrote: what i mean by 'FF's balance is fucked up' is several things. Firstly raiding is both difficult and costly. guess what the best unit to use is? BUILDERS??? just expand with 2-4 and reclaim you opponents mexes, don't use the fighters as they behave RETARDEDLY. Jinking in and out of range so not even firing half the time. This is...disturbing.
i guess you mean the real fighters, not the gunships which have to be set on hold fire if you wanna cancel an attack. Thats spring bug and not fixable. Only if i would set their movement to gunships, but that would suck even more.
If you mean the gunships, i cant agree with you. Believe it or not, when i m raiding before tech 3, i do it with fighters and not with odss. Ods can be reclaimed very easy and often i had an extra income of several thounsands cause of my enemy odss.
Two, The costs...can't you scale them down somewhat and then scale down the metal? its just such a absurd scale atm it makes comparing anything a calculator affair.
? You mean i shall calculate them down, only that you can compare the units? That is just a cosmetic thing, could be easily done, but that would need 3 hours of stupid work. Perhaps in the future, but i dont see a big necessary for that atm. And cant take the time for that. You have to take a calculator, a coffee, a free evening and a lot of motivation for that [/quote]
Three. The early game buildup is fine as long as fighters are given a buff (not behaving like idiots) maneveurability of t1 antifighters needs a slight buff so you have some degree of control over them, T2 fighters should be even better at turning (specifically the ones which have to make runs)
ah here you mean the real fighters. So read above and you will see, that its sadly not fixable at all. You have to tell it the spring developers, but i guess they know this already.
Four. Useless units, wtf is the wisp for? and its counterpart? This confuses the HECK out of noobs (not that you have a influx of players into FF anyway)
they arent that useless. They are called scouts - everyone knows what a scout is. You can use probes for sure, but with a scout, you can attack single constructors far away from their mainbase. You are right that they arent very usefull, but shall i make a scout another warunit? It is cheap, so you can build hordes of them and irritate your enemy on radar :lol:
I have to check their exact warvalue in some games and i think i will do so.
Five. T3 economy, as insane as it is retarded. Screws up gameplay tbh.
Six. The gameplay is not very dynamic at all. Removing the T3 economy might help this a little.
by removing t3 economy, the late game would be very very very slow and metalmakers would be the only win. atm asteroids have a high strategy value, because you can get a lot of metal out of them with the t3 mohos. Without them, everyone could stay in a base and spam mohometalmakers. Even lvl 2 mexes would be only a small advantage, but only in the mid game.
Image
here you can see, that without lvl 3 eco, you have to play a lot longer only to reach the metalamount you need for lvl 3 ships. That wouldnt do the game more dynamic but would just slow down the step from mid to lategame (lategame begins for me at an income of 300).
To the lvl 3 fusion - it is less effective than solars and pokets, so no one really needs them. Its just an alternative for lategame -i dont see why this is wrong.[/quote]
Seven. maps. so what if you are a modder, your mod is NOTHING without maps, and also changes need to be made to radar so it can be used to spy within its radius completely, regardless of terrain (hope this is possible)
sorry, but for creating good maps, my pc is too slow and i really dont have the time. What about you?
Eight. The mod isn't halfway near done yet you plan for a third race to add to the imbalance. Improve the models of the first, play about with scripting, improve the balance. then in 30 years or so add a 3rd side if that makes you happy.
it is still not ready, so no panic. But even if, i really think that it wont break the balance.

Nine. The balance. Is buggered. Don't even argue this, FF isn't bad on large maps for 2v2/3v3 or those skillless 4v4/5v5 with utter noobs you so love. But on a nice small 1v1 map ODS are way to good (radar not functioning as it should doesn't help this), either make a better 1v1 map which is bigger with the same amount of metal, but distributed better. Remember the only good 2v2 (or bigger if thats the way you like it @.@) is FF-Surrounded.
try to reclaim ods with comm or some lvl 1 and 2 constructors if you dont have comm towers. A lvl 1 ods costs nearly 750 metal and a lvl 2 1700 or so. A comm tower costs 1200 i think and destroys 2 lvl 1 ods. At level 2 you can build ions which solve every ods problem. If you cant see them on radar, just probe them. But here i agree with you, this radar problem has to be fixed - the problem is - i dont know how.
Edit: i just tested the lvl 1 emp stunners. One cost 250 and 2 of them can stun a lvl 2 ods with ease. Again: i dont see all your problems - even if i search for them i cant find them.

believe me or not, but i really thought about all of these ideas in detail. You have to show me most of these problems ig (like odss too good), else i dont believe you because i "think" that i can counter your *imba* tactic.
Last edited by Optimus Prime on 20 Jul 2006, 13:12, edited 2 times in total.
Locked

Return to “Game Development”